OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

I'll leave my tubs open if you leave your exo's open and we can see who likes what better :p haha

I kinda see what you are saying but you are wrong about passion. There is no spot cleaning on newsprint. Cleaning a 100 tubs on newsprint would take the same passion as spot cleaning 100 cages. I think it takes the same amount of passion no matter what you use.

Do people who keep birds have no passion for them?

This post is going way over board from what the OP was asking. It has gotten into a full blown debate.

Cort you started by saying that bp owners have no passion for our animals and that is so not the truth. If in your words they should be kept in a natural environment then they should be kept in their environment and not in captivity at all. Even your vivs are not totally natural do they have a fresh warm breeze going through them? Does it rain in them like it does in nature? Do you feed frozen or live?

Everyone has their own thoughts on things. IMO I don't see any need for people to own hots, but at the same time I am not going to tell someone that they shouldn't. It's just my own opinion.

But to come out and say that the owners out here have no passion for their snakes. Is totally uncalled for. I have never seen an animal on here that was kept in harsh conditions unless that person rescued it from someone that wasn't taking care of it properly.

In your last post you said that most snakes in captivity adapt to their surroundings. And for BPs that could be a tub with newspaper or with paper towels.

I have one normal that I keep in a tank and I have to fight all the time to keep the humidity right. I have 3 others in tubs that the humidity is dead on all the time as well as the heat.

I know this was a bit of rambling but like other people on here I do have passion for my animals.

I agree this thread has drifted astray lol
Cort I don't think anyone on here will dispute your knowledge and experience. I for one appreciate experienced people such as yourself taking the time to help others on forums like these. However, my only beef is the manner in which you are relaying your knowledge. You can very easily have shared your information in a much less condescending manner and also with a lot less douchiness. I mean no disrespect. I agree you have been pretty rude and it's nowhere near anything like the religious fanatic reference you made. Information passed on in a rude condescending manner is rude regardless of the topic.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

So, your only problem is newspaper? Is that really it?

As long as I keep them on corrugated paper or paper towels you think that is perfectly fine?

I'm curious as to why you have such a huge problem with newspaper.


My understanding of venomous needing a more natural enclosure is that they generally camouflage with their environment to catch their prey. Not that they need it in order to catch their prey, but they perhaps sense that they blend in with their environment which makes them feel safer.

Does that make sense?

I really don't know a whole lot about hots since I don't keep them.

---

It's not just newspaper, it's the whole, let's just do the bare minimum - newspaper and water bowl.

Why does that only apply to venomous snakes? Look at GTP's etc, they blend in with their surroundings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reptileexperts

The ability to thrive on a given substrate is a process that has occured through this process and is a charactoristic of these snakes. This, even in your looked up definition, defines an evolution process. And if you want to pull out and compare, let me get the 4 degrees off my wall and fax them right over. . . You're becoming very defensive for "not being against tubs". You have made your point, but its obviously anti-flow, and that's fine people can think how they want as long as their not mistreating these animals. If you want to house your snakes in a naturalistic cage, that's fine, but don't insult or be little those who do not want to provide the same asthetic appeal as you apparently have. Many of the people here house more than 10+ snakes. It is possible to do this with "glass tanks" of any sorts, but not the best option in a cost vs benefit. Is there any true issues with keeping snakes in tubs? None that I have ever witnessed. Are there issues with keeping snakes in naturalistic cages, nope not if you're willing to keep it clean. Because while you rant on and on about the natural world. You need to remember that most snakes do not live in the same place that they deficate in. They are quite clean animals. Spot cleaning a naturalistic cage is not enough since liquird waste can not always be removed in this fashion. Through this urates will rise to harmful levels and eventually cause your snake to become ill. However, think how you want, this is not a form of thought police. But this is a place for a wealth of information.

---

That isn't evolution. Evolution would be if they developed something entirely new, to adapt to the paper substrate - for example if there was a change in their belly scales. They haven't really adapted to newspaper, they don't have any other choice. I could put them on a layer of laptops, and say oh they've adapted and evolved to living on a laptop.

It's perfectly feasible, right now i have 6 Vivs, and 4 exo's. I have plenty of friends, who have large collections 70+ snakes and every single one of them is in a proper set up. It's quite easy to clean a naturalistic environment, for one on certain substrates it's easy to see the area that's been defecated in and you remove all the surrounding substrate and a bit more and then disinfect. Secondly in certain enclosures i have bio active substrate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 3skulls

I'll leave my tubs open if you leave your exo's open and we can see who likes what better :p haha

I kinda see what you are saying but you are wrong about passion. There is no spot cleaning on newsprint. Cleaning a 100 tubs on newsprint would take the same passion as spot cleaning 100 cages. I think it takes the same amount of passion no matter what you use.

Do people who keep birds have no passion for them?

---

Depends what type of enclosure they have them in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mattb

This post is going way over board from what the OP was asking. It has gotten into a full blown debate.

Cort you started by saying that bp owners have no passion for our animals and that is so not the truth. If in your words they should be kept in a natural environment then they should be kept in their environment and not in captivity at all. Even your vivs are not totally natural do they have a fresh warm breeze going through them? Does it rain in them like it does in nature? Do you feed frozen or live?

Everyone has their own thoughts on things. IMO I don't see any need for people to own hots, but at the same time I am not going to tell someone that they shouldn't. It's just my own opinion.

But to come out and say that the owners out here have no passion for their snakes. Is totally uncalled for. I have never seen an animal on here that was kept in harsh conditions unless that person rescued it from someone that wasn't taking care of it properly.

In your last post you said that most snakes in captivity adapt to their surroundings. And for BPs that could be a tub with newspaper or with paper towels.

I have one normal that I keep in a tank and I have to fight all the time to keep the humidity right. I have 3 others in tubs that the humidity is dead on all the time as well as the heat.

I know this was a bit of rambling but like other people on here I do have passion for my animals.

---

I'm not saying all Royal owners, It's the ones who provide inadequate space and minimal decor that would provide some enrichment (You cannot say an elaborate set up wouldn't stimulate the snakes mind more than a boring one!)

That's a useless point, how can you say there is no reason to own Hots, but you own snakes? There is no reason to own a python either.

Like i said earlier, just because you cannot replicate every single aspect, does that mean you shouldn't try at all? No it doesn't.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gene Collins

I agree this thread has drifted astray lol
Cort I don't think anyone on here will dispute your knowledge and experience. I for one appreciate experienced people such as yourself taking the time to help others on forums like these. However, my only beef is the manner in which you are relaying your knowledge. You can very easily have shared your information in a much less condescending manner and also with a lot less douchiness. I mean no disrespect. I agree you have been pretty rude and it's nowhere near anything like the religious fanatic reference you made. Information passed on in a rude condescending manner is rude regardless of the topic.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

---

Like i said, there is no reason for anyone to be offended. It's just an opinion.

Why does everyone keep saying i've got knowledge and experience? lol. I haven't. I have with venomous snakes, that's it, that's all i've ever kept that's why. But a snake is a snake at the end of the day, regardless whether it's venomous or not. But i have dealt with animals that are far more easily stressed than ball pythons, with is why i reject the notion that a minimalistic set up is the best way to get them feeding etc.

Thus why I keep my GTPs and ATBs in semi-naturalistic enclosures. I use fake plants and cypress mulch.

Lets face the facts: For those of us who choose to keep a large number of animals, the bare minimum is what is healthiest for the animal, and easiest for the keeper to maintain. Very few people with one or two snakes keep them in bare bones setups. That is totally cool. But for me, I wouldn't be able to handle cleaning out 20+ naturalistic vivs. I can still provide the animals with food, water, and a clean place to hang out.

Its not really that a minimalistic setup gets a stressed snake to eat as much as it is about easily meeting its temperature and humidity requirements, and making it feel safe. People often suggest a bare bones setup over a naturalistic setup because for an inexperienced keeper, there are less variables to deal with in a bare bones setup, which means the keeper will have an easier time maintaining the required environment.

I too often see enormous aquariums with few hides and unregulated heat sources being used by new keepers. This is not the proper way to do a naturalistic enclosure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm not saying all Royal owners, It's the ones who provide inadequate space and minimal decor that would provide some enrichment (You cannot say an elaborate set up wouldn't stimulate the snakes mind more than a boring one!)

That's a useless point, how can you say there is no reason to own Hots, but you own snakes? There is no reason to own a python either.

Like i said earlier, just because you cannot replicate every single aspect, does that mean you shouldn't try at all? No it doesn't.

---

About hots it is useless to say that. I am saying that we all have opinions and just like you with tubs mine is about hots the only difference is I don't attack people that want to keep hots. Just as you shouldn't attack people saying they are not passionate about keeping their BP or anything else in a way that they have been kept for years and years.

But we have gotten so far off the point of the OP that almost none one this thread has to do with his question.

To the OP I think you just need to explain to your friends about the places that a BP lives and tell them that they are more than comfortable in their enclosures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mattb

But we have gotten so far off the point of the OP that almost none one this thread has to do with his question.

---

I on the other hand feel this debate is completely relevant to the question. Everyone here, even amongst the heated debate, has given pros and cons to housing in each kind of enclosure. I like a friendly debate every once in a while. It just goes to show that there is no single right way to care for these animals. The OP doesn't need to convince his friend that what he is doing is RIGHT, he just needs to convince them that it is one way of many to house these animals and that the animals are healthy under those conditions.

Did he really just say people who provide their balls with enrichment? So they are like parrots now . . . makes perfect since why mine are so depressed. I'm glad I took them to the pet psychic that I saw on the add while I was putting newspaper down in my retics cage . . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

I on the other hand feel this debate is completely relevant to the question. Everyone here, even amongst the heated debate, has given pros and cons to housing in each kind of enclosure. I like a friendly debate every once in a while. It just goes to show that there is no single right way to care for these animals. The OP doesn't need to convince his friend that what he is doing is RIGHT, he just needs to convince them that it is one way of many to house these animals and that the animals are healthy under those conditions.

---

Yes you are correct. I was just a little steamed over the whole no passion comment. An opinion is an opinion but to start saying that people have no passion because they keep BPs in a minimal environment to me is just wrong.

I do agree with everything you have said. Thank you.

For science and reaserch professionals keep HOTS in tubs! Why in the world would they set up thousands of tanks with decor????? Come on man!

I don't know if it's just me, but 90% of the venomous keepers I've come across are extremely condescending and rude when it comes to people who don't keep venomous or do things like they do. I keep my carpet python's in visions and boaphiles with perches to climb on etc but my smaller snakes stay in racks with newspaper and a water bowl and they do just fine. Big vivs are expensive and not exactly in most peoples price range to go buy 20 of them because they have that many snakes. It's easier and cheaper to buy a rack or build one for about the same price as 1 nice viv and you have 5-10 spots for snakes instead of 1. Like you said it's your opinion, but everyone has one and so far the majority are against you and the way you treat the passionate people on this forum. Your just another venomous keeping bully who thinks his way is the way and nobody else should do anything different. And for one I didn't rip any of my animals from there natural habitat so how would they know what is natural and what is not? As long as husbandry is correct and your snake is healthy keep your snake how ever you please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

Thus why I keep my GTPs and ATBs in semi-naturalistic enclosures. I use fake plants and cypress mulch.

Lets face the facts: For those of us who choose to keep a large number of animals, the bare minimum is what is healthiest for the animal, and easiest for the keeper to maintain. Very few people with one or two snakes keep them in bare bones setups. That is totally cool. But for me, I wouldn't be able to handle cleaning out 20+ naturalistic vivs. I can still provide the animals with food, water, and a clean place to hang out.

Its not really that a minimalistic setup gets a stressed snake to eat as much as it is about easily meeting its temperature and humidity requirements, and making it feel safe. People often suggest a bare bones setup over a naturalistic setup because for an inexperienced keeper, there are less variables to deal with in a bare bones setup, which means the keeper will have an easier time maintaining the required environment.

I too often see enormous aquariums with few hides and unregulated heat sources being used by new keepers. This is not the proper way to do a naturalistic enclosure.

---

Healthiest for the animal? Really..I wonder how any of your snakes are more healthy than mine.

I'm sorry but it's not rocket science to set up a naturalistic tank. Those individuals most of them time are just plain stupid (apart from if they're very young).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mattb

About hots it is useless to say that. I am saying that we all have opinions and just like you with tubs mine is about hots the only difference is I don't attack people that want to keep hots. Just as you shouldn't attack people saying they are not passionate about keeping their BP or anything else in a way that they have been kept for years and years.

But we have gotten so far off the point of the OP that almost none one this thread has to do with his question.

To the OP I think you just need to explain to your friends about the places that a BP lives and tell them that they are more than comfortable in their enclosures.

---

Just because they've been kept that way, doesn't mean it's right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Did he really just say people who provide their balls with enrichment? So they are like parrots now . . . makes perfect since why mine are so depressed. I'm glad I took them to the pet psychic that I saw on the add while I was putting newspaper down in my retics cage . . .

---

I think you're naive to think a snake doesn't receive mental stimulation from a more elaborate set up. The picture i posted earlier of a Royal set up, is a friends, their royal is very active and i'm 100% it is more active than ones kept with the bare minimum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KingPythons

For science and reaserch professionals keep HOTS in tubs! Why in the world would they set up thousands of tanks with decor????? Come on man!

---

Because they are not keeping them as pets! Even Kentucky Reptile Zoo manages to keep their snakes they use for extractions on a decent substrate.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Austin C.

I don't know if it's just me, but 90% of the venomous keepers I've come across are extremely condescending and rude when it comes to people who don't keep venomous or do things like they do. I keep my carpet python's in visions and boaphiles with perches to climb on etc but my smaller snakes stay in racks with newspaper and a water bowl and they do just fine. Big vivs are expensive and not exactly in most peoples price range to go buy 20 of them because they have that many snakes. It's easier and cheaper to buy a rack or build one for about the same price as 1 nice viv and you have 5-10 spots for snakes instead of 1. Like you said it's your opinion, but everyone has one and so far the majority are against you and the way you treat the passionate people on this forum. Your just another venomous keeping bully who thinks his way is the way and nobody else should do anything different. And for one I didn't rip any of my animals from there natural habitat so how would they know what is natural and what is not? As long as husbandry is correct and your snake is healthy keep your snake how ever you please.

---

I couldn't care less if you keep venomous or not. It has nothing to do with that. A lot of my friends just keep non venomous, doesn't bother me.

Yes of course people on here have disagreed with me, that's fine. But that's on this forum, if you were to go on the European forums etc, you will see more people prefer to give naturalistic set ups than minimalistic. And from my friends, only 1 person i know keeps them in a racking system on paper out of 60 odd people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm not saying all Royal owners, It's the ones who provide inadequate space and minimal decor that would provide some enrichment (You cannot say an elaborate set up wouldn't stimulate the snakes mind more than a boring one!)

---

Snakes are very basic creatures, I don't think providing them with a log to crawl over is going to provide them enrichment. As I said, my boas are in cages with decorations and they are not inclined to move, and we are talking about a species that is vastly different from ball pythons. Boas are known to climb on occasion, but the only time mine ever leave their hide and climb is when they are shedding. Snakes are very basic animals and I don't think enrichment falls into their needs. If you can provide me with some concrete proof that snakes need sometime of enrichment because they are unhappy I would gladly concede the point to you.

What I have taken offense to is that you seem to think that because I (and other like me) keep my snakes on paper towels/news paper that I lack passion. I keep my snakes on paper towels because it's the easiest thing I have found to clean and it forces me to do a full clean every time. I feel my snakes are in a much more sanitary conditions when I have to take everything out and clean it. I've tried keeping my snakes on aspen or cypress mulch and it just didn't work for me. My Kenyan sand boas are the only ones who get substrate they can burrow into because they are the only ones who need it. My passion for my reptiles runs deep. I spend over an hour every day checking on everyone and making sure they are okay. My setup may be minimal, but as I have said before replicating a naturalistic environment isn't part of my passion and doesn't harm my animals. I get great joy from being able to share my reptiles and my hobby.

I never said one way was healthier than the other, you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that it is much harder to maintain a clean environment in a naturalistic enclosure than it is in a tub setup. Can it be done? No doubt! You are doing it right now! But it can be very time consuming to maintain especially when you are looking at 20+ snakes. I know I wouldn't have time to clean out 25 naturalistic enclosures, so I use tubs instead. I am choosing the method that is healthier for my animals because I know I will not be able to care for them properly if they are housed differently.

For newbies, setting up a tank can be very complicated! It doesn't mean they are stupid if they can't do it. Everyone makes mistakes when starting out.

Do you know for a fact that your snakes are more mentally stimulated by their more natural environment? If you do have some sort of study you are referring to I would love to see the evidence. It might actually change my mind. Moving around more is not proof of mental stimulation in my opinion. It can be interpreted in many ways.

:popcorn:

Ok that's a European forum they do what they do, we live in the US and we do what we do. Case and point my animals are healthy and eat readily so I see no reason to go up and over my head to setup every cage with sand or aspen and hides and perches and fake plants it's a lot of work for people who have 15+ animals to clean naturalistic vivs like that every week I should know I clean snakes for a living. My personal animals aren't suffering so there's really no argument here. Now if my animals were sickly not eating and losing weight then I would consider a change up but that hasn't happened in the last 4 years I've been keeping.. it's not going to happen now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

It's got nothing to do with being rude, you're acting like one of those religious maniacs that takes offense to the slightest comment made against their beliefs. If you believe what you're doing is correct, why does it bother you what i think? I certainly couldn't care less what people thought of my set ups lol.:)

Would you also take offense to the fact I don't feel the need to keep any non venomous snake and never have, because i don't find them attractive to look at?

It's all opinions at the end of the day, and i wouldn't ever be offended by someones opinion.

---

So, you're saying I'm acting like someone who's...what's the word...oh fiddlestix...oh wait..PASSIONATE. Right. I'm not a religious maniac, quite the opposite in fact, agnostic. But, I do appreciate you announcing my PASSION on the subject. I keep 2 pythons in vivs, with hides, cypress bedding, and my younger one has a bush or two to make her more secure. I keep one, and soon all except my largest, in a rack. All of my tubs have 2 hides, cypress mulch, and at least a piece of cork bark. I do this because I have a very small collection, and I can. I have a LOT of extra time being a stay at home mom, so it keeps me busy.

You are being very thick headed about the point of most of the communities complaints. Some of them are debating housing techniques, and that's great. But the majority of us are still passionately debating with you because of your condescending demeanor, and downright disrespect for other people.

I don't mind that you don't like the way some people keep their pets, I don't like the way some people keep their pets, bob over there doesn't like the way I keep my pets (sorry to any real bobs, just an example) etc. That doesn't bother me in the least. THAT is each person's opinion. The problem is you throwing everyone who does it a different way under the bus. If you feel so very strongly about the way others keep their animals, so strongly that you form opinions about them without even knowing them, calling them not passionate, and only looking for money...well who's the religious maniac now? You are generalizing people based on your passionate opinion of what you believe is best for snakes, and passionate keepers are getting POd about it.

Let's say this, now, I don't believe this personally, as I love HOTS and think they are beautiful etc, and more power to anyone who is capable of working with them...but for example... I were to make the statement "I keep non venomous pythons, and those that keep venomous snakes are just in it for the wow factor. They endanger hundreds of people by keeping venomous animals in their homes. Anyone who keeps venomous snakes in their home is just immature and reckless with something to prove."

That is profoundly idiotic to say. (What I just said)

But it is lumping up, stereotyping, a group of people, and that is what you are doing. That's great that all your UK friends keep their bps in natural vivs. Super awesome, here's a sticker *star sticker!* But that still doesn't cover why you have to treat other human beings like trash because they don't agree with you. Treat others as you wish to be treated, until they prove otherwise...in which case, release the hounds... Or something.. *shrug*

Sorry for the delay, was trying to take a nap :oops:

Edit: Lol DooLittle, I can has some? :P

Anyway...We just keep going round in circles.

Sorry if i caused offense, i didn't mean to. I'm not that type of person. Maybe i was a bit strong with me saying it's a lack of passion, I understand people do things a different way. I should've said something like 'It's a lack of willingness to put the extra time in to clean naturalistic enclosures?' lol.

I'm in no position to create a study, I'm a Physicist not a Biologist. Maybe someone will be able to create a more in depth study into the capacity of a snakes brain to differentiate between set ups etc, who knows.

Oh and don't think that i think i'm a superior keeper because i keep venomous snakes, venomous keepers are not a special breed of human - although some like to think so!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I think you're naive to think a snake doesn't receive mental stimulation from a more elaborate set up. The picture i posted earlier of a Royal set up, is a friends, their royal is very active and i'm 100% it is more active than ones kept with the bare minimum.

---

Ok. Let me get this straight. You're arguing about ball python husbandry on a ball python forum with ball python keepers who have kept these snakes for years and you don't even own one or have ever owned a ball?? :confusd:
(you mentioned this in your very first thread)



Ball pythons aren't generally active snakes. Basic Ball Pythons 101 - The more active they are, that means something is wrong with the husbandry or set up.
This is why they make horrid display animals. They are sound and 'happy' when hiding. Activity means they are stressed and are 'trying to find a way out'.
The reason why people do the things they do is because it works. I'm sure tons of people have tried a verity of set ups ranging from bare racks to pvc enclosures to glass tanks and so on. People have been doing this for years and have found that ball pythons (specifically) do very well in a tighter enclosure with minimalistic set up than other species. Ball pythons are a species known to be extremely picky and rather sensitive to their husbandry. If a bare, tight set up didn't work, they wouldn't thrive in captivity. With that said, they do better in tighter enclosures than extra large. Display enclosures can work for a ball python, but it really needs to be cluttered up to make them feel secure in place of a tighter enclosure. Insecure ball pythons go off feed and stress easily.

Balls in the wild aren't roaming around constantly. They're in a rodent burrow or termite mound. If you've seen an ASF, they're not very large. I can't imagine their burrows are very large either....And yeah... sitting underground must be EXTREMELY enriching................. I can't imagine how to replicate such an enriching setting...:rolleyes:


Like everyone else said, they're in there 90% of the time for food and shelter. They are nocturnal animals so they don't tend to come out during the day. The only reasons they leave their shelter other than for breeding is because the resources(food) have been depleted and they travel to another burrow or mound to take up residence and eat. Since we provide food and water, they have no need to look for another 'burrow'.

Your argument works great for other species, but it's really pointless for a ball.....

I wish I could put my ball pythons in an elaborate set up. I think they're gorgeous.
I use a simple rack system because they seem to do the best in it. And I choose their comfort over my desire of seeing an visually aesthetic enclosure. Some people have beautiful set ups for their balls, but it's really no greater than a rack. The visual is more for human want than ball python need.
Also since ball pythons tend to hide 90% of the time, I would rather dedicate that elaborate enclosure to some other species that would utilize the space and set up.



I do agree with you on the evolution part, however.
Ball pythons are not 'domesticated'. Domesticated would mean that they are entirely different from their wild counterparts in Africa.
And they're not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoseyReps

So, you're saying I'm acting like someone who's...what's the word...oh fiddlestix...oh wait..PASSIONATE. Right. I'm not a religious maniac, quite the opposite in fact, agnostic. But, I do appreciate you announcing my PASSION on the subject. I keep 2 pythons in vivs, with hides, cypress bedding, and my younger one has a bush or two to make her more secure. I keep one, and soon all except my largest, in a rack. All of my tubs have 2 hides, cypress mulch, and at least a piece of cork bark. I do this because I have a very small collection, and I can. I have a LOT of extra time being a stay at home mom, so it keeps me busy.

You are being very thick headed about the point of most of the communities complaints. Some of them are debating housing techniques, and that's great. But the majority of us are still passionately debating with you because of your condescending demeanor, and downright disrespect for other people.

I don't mind that you don't like the way some people keep their pets, I don't like the way some people keep their pets, bob over there doesn't like the way I keep my pets (sorry to any real bobs, just an example) etc. That doesn't bother me in the least. THAT is each person's opinion. The problem is you throwing everyone who does it a different way under the bus. If you feel so very strongly about the way others keep their animals, so strongly that you form opinions about them without even knowing them, calling them not passionate, and only looking for money...well who's the religious maniac now? You are generalizing people based on your passionate opinion of what you believe is best for snakes, and passionate keepers are getting POd about it.

Let's say this, now, I don't believe this personally, as I love HOTS and think they are beautiful etc, and more power to anyone who is capable of working with them...but for example... I were to make the statement "I keep non venomous pythons, and those that keep venomous snakes are just in it for the wow factor. They endanger hundreds of people by keeping venomous animals in their homes. Anyone who keeps venomous snakes in their home is just immature and reckless with something to prove."

That is profoundly idiotic to say. (What I just said)

But it is lumping up, stereotyping, a group of people, and that is what you are doing. That's great that all your UK friends keep their bps in natural vivs. Super awesome, here's a sticker *star sticker!* But that still doesn't cover why you have to treat other human beings like trash because they don't agree with you. Treat others as you wish to be treated, until they prove otherwise...in which case, release the hounds... Or something.. *shrug*

Sorry for the delay, was trying to take a nap :oops:

---

It's just an opinion that's my point, it shouldn't be offensive. If it makes you annoyed, then all you have to do is argue your point and 'show me the light'.

If someone did say that about venomous keepers, i couldn't care less. I know what i do, and why i do it - simple as that. Although i agree that some keepers do just keep venomous because they're venomous. I can count on one hand how many people have seen my collection in real life, as the snakes are for me not for others :)

But i do think people over exaggerate just how much time it takes to look after these animals. I've got 20 reptiles at the moment, and probably in a week it takes me maybe an hour all together to look after them. Not much...all with naturalistic set ups. Maybe i'm just good at multi-tasking and have low maintenance reptiles lol.

Which is probably true..My rattlesnakes are only fed once every 2-3 weeks, Gaboons every 2-3 weeks - Bathed once a week, White lips every 1.5-2 weeks - sprayed every other day, Cobra fed every 1-2 weeks. And my various lizards are just fed every day and water bowls changed every 2 days.

Decent substrate ? Oh man, kentucky zoo?? Ok
First that's a zoo 2nd they are funded do u really think they paid for it out they own pocket? We are talking about what works here and what you spent out of your pocket now. If your balling Mr Baller then keep them on what u like! Just sayin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KingPythons

Decent substrate ? Oh man, kentucky zoo?? Ok
First that's a zoo 2nd they are funded do u really think they paid for it out they own pocket? We are talking about what works here and what you spent out of your pocket now. If your balling Mr Baller then keep them on what u like! Just sayin

---

Exactly! we aren't all made of money, we do what works for us financially and what keep our animals healthy.

Arrggg, boy..I'm gonna hop the pond and bonk you on the head! :P

Opinions ARE offensive if they are insulting an entire group of people! Let's do this the blatantly nasty, and over-the-top way.

Person A says: Hey, you! Group of homosexual guys! I think you're all disgusting and only do it for attention! Because you're different than me!

Group of awesome dudes: Are you kidding me? How dare you! You butt(other word)hat!

Person A: Hey, don't get offended. It's just my opinion!

Do you see how naive this is? Expecting people to not be offended when you DIRECTLY insult them, is just...well... derpy.
You did good saying you didn't mean to offend. The thing I'm trying to get across is even if you believe something, even if you believe that people who do bare minimum are not passionate, or as passionate, about their reptiles...you don't need to shout that from the rooftops. Or if you do, expect some backlash. Going back to my other post, think before you speak. "Will what I am about to say hurt another person? Is it worth it? Does that statement NEED to be said?" In this case, no. It did not. You did not have to go as far as to tell the large masses that you think they aren't passionate and only care about money.

If someone insults you directly, especially about something you care deeply about, and you can still shrug it off because, hey...it's their opinion.. Good on you. Most people cannot, and honestly, shouldn't have to. There is hardly ever a reason to hurt someone by putting them down. In debating, if you resort to personal attacks, name calling, etc, you are admitting defeat and that you have no solid point to make on the debate.

I'm sorry, but I am just so tired of the generation of "I can say what I want, when I want, so what if it hurts people" IE: the ME ME ME generation. Maybe you're a part of it, maybe you're not, I care not. Just explaining my opinion ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoseyReps

To add to my last post:

Bps in racks is replicating what they are accustomed to in the wild. Small, tight, dark hole. Those are the bullet points the snake looks for when choosing a rodents den. Tight, dark, warm. They don't choose which one has a better floor, "oh..well this one has sticks, but that one over there..it has dead grass...oh and this one has dirt! Ho hum...I guess I'll go with the dead grass...no..too itchy, ok, dirt!..." No, the reptilian brain is much more, well, reptilian.
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
*happy snake face*
*sleeps*

How are we to know which flooring the bps prefer? We can't, and we never will. Who's to say they don't prefer the newspaper? It's smoother than au'natural, non-abrasive on their tummies...Maybe they do like to read, we'll never know.:rolleyes:

So, back to our situation. What is a tub, with newspaper substrate (I don't personally like newspaper, the ink etc. I prefer cypress or aspen, but we'll use the evils of newspaper for this) consist of?
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
:O
Added bonus - some keepers use hides, MORE TIGHTNESS & DARKNESS WOOT! (That was from the bp's mouth, just being silly, sorry.)
Added bonus - constant fresh water
Added bonus - rats come to MEEEEEEE
Added bonus - no other snakes tryin'a take my house. (sorry, bp went all gangster there for a sec)

Bare minimum for a living ball python, well you can see that all day long on craigslist. 20L aquarium, screen top, heat light, half log hide, repti-carpet/paper/aspen/pine*cringe*/whatever-is-on-sale-at-wal-mart.
Racks are far from bare minimum.


Oye...I need to sleep... :P

---

You're awesome ;)

I have both racks and an enclosure for my bps.

When I purchased my enclosure I was under the impression he would be my only Bp (LOL)

Heres his enclosure:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/30/vyramedu.jpg

My other 4 bps reside in my rack, on paper towel.

Both eat fine, shed fine and seem "happy" in general.

Honesty though, cleaning the tank is such a pain compared to cleaning my tubs.

Why are we still attacking each other? People already apologized and clarified. Let's stop stirring the pot and go on worldofballpythons.com/wizard and calm ourselves down ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Ok. Let me get this straight. You're arguing about ball python husbandry on a ball python forum with ball python keepers who have kept these snakes for years and you don't even own one or have ever owned a ball?? :confusd:
(you mentioned this in your very first thread)



Ball pythons aren't generally active snakes. Basic Ball Pythons 101 - The more active they are, that means something is wrong with the husbandry or set up.
This is why they make horrid display animals. They are sound and 'happy' when hiding. Activity means they are stressed and are 'trying to find a way out'.
The reason why people do the things they do is because it works. I'm sure tons of people have tried a verity of set ups ranging from bare racks to pvc enclosures to glass tanks and so on. People have been doing this for years and have found that ball pythons (specifically) do very well in a tighter enclosure with minimalistic set up than other species. Ball pythons are a species known to be extremely picky and rather sensitive to their husbandry. If a bare, tight set up didn't work, they wouldn't thrive in captivity. With that said, they do better in tighter enclosures than extra large. Display enclosures can work for a ball python, but it really needs to be cluttered up to make them feel secure in place of a tighter enclosure. Insecure ball pythons go off feed and stress easily.

Balls in the wild aren't roaming around constantly. They're in a rodent burrow or termite mound. If you've seen an ASF, they're not very large. I can't imagine their burrows are very large either....And yeah... sitting underground must be EXTREMELY enriching................. I can't imagine how to replicate such an enriching setting...:rolleyes:


Like everyone else said, they're in there 90% of the time for food and shelter. They are nocturnal animals so they don't tend to come out during the day. The only reasons they leave their shelter other than for breeding is because the resources(food) have been depleted and they travel to another burrow or mound to take up residence and eat. Since we provide food and water, they have no need to look for another 'burrow'.

Your argument works great for other species, but it's really pointless for a ball.....

I wish I could put my ball pythons in an elaborate set up. I think they're gorgeous.
I use a simple rack system because they seem to do the best in it. And I choose their comfort over my desire of seeing an visually aesthetic enclosure. Some people have beautiful set ups for their balls, but it's really no greater than a rack. The visual is more for human want than ball python need.
Also since ball pythons tend to hide 90% of the time, I would rather dedicate that elaborate enclosure to some other species that would utilize the space and set up.



I do agree with you on the evolution part, however.
Ball pythons are not 'domesticated'. Domesticated would mean that they are entirely different from their wild counterparts in Africa.
And they're not.

---

True. But like i stated earlier, Royals may not be active, but that's nothing compared to my Gaboons. Royals may also stress, also nothing compared to rhinoceros and nasicornis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KingPythons

Decent substrate ? Oh man, kentucky zoo?? Ok
First that's a zoo 2nd they are funded do u really think they paid for it out they own pocket? We are talking about what works here and what you spent out of your pocket now. If your balling Mr Baller then keep them on what u like! Just sayin

---

I'm on about their venom extraction facility. It's got nothing to do with being a 'baller', substrate isn't exactly expensive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Arrggg, boy..I'm gonna hop the pond and bonk you on the head! :P

Opinions ARE offensive if they are insulting an entire group of people! Let's do this the blatantly nasty, and over-the-top way.

Person A says: Hey, you! Group of homosexual guys! I think you're all disgusting and only do it for attention! Because you're different than me!

Group of awesome dudes: Are you kidding me? How dare you! You butt(other word)hat!

Person A: Hey, don't get offended. It's just my opinion!

Do you see how naive this is? Expecting people to not be offended when you DIRECTLY insult them, is just...well... derpy.
You did good saying you didn't mean to offend. The thing I'm trying to get across is even if you believe something, even if you believe that people who do bare minimum are not passionate, or as passionate, about their reptiles...you don't need to shout that from the rooftops. Or if you do, expect some backlash. Going back to my other post, think before you speak. "Will what I am about to say hurt another person? Is it worth it? Does that statement NEED to be said?" In this case, no. It did not. You did not have to go as far as to tell the large masses that you think they aren't passionate and only care about money.

If someone insults you directly, especially about something you care deeply about, and you can still shrug it off because, hey...it's their opinion.. Good on you. Most people cannot, and honestly, shouldn't have to. There is hardly ever a reason to hurt someone by putting them down. In debating, if you resort to personal attacks, name calling, etc, you are admitting defeat and that you have no solid point to make on the debate.

I'm sorry, but I am just so tired of the generation of "I can say what I want, when I want, so what if it hurts people" IE: the ME ME ME generation. Maybe you're a part of it, maybe you're not, I care not. Just explaining my opinion ;)

---

Haha! Well i'm definitely one of the people who doesn't take notice of someones opinion after all it's only words, what damage can words do? none. I've had people be racist to me before, i didn't get offended, i talked to them about it instead, to try and and make them see why it's wrong. Being offended doesn't solve anything.


:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

Why are we still attacking each other? People already apologized and clarified. Let's stop stirring the pot and go on worldofballpythons.com/wizard and calm ourselves down ;)

---

Because we are all passionate about our animals....:)

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Haha! Well i'm definitely one of the people who doesn't take notice of someones opinion after all it's only words, what damage can words do? none. I've had people be racist to me before, i didn't get offended, i talked to them about it instead, to try and and make them see why it's wrong. Being offended doesn't solve anything.


:)

---

And that, is exactly what is wrong with a lot of people. Not caring if they offend, or hurt people. I will bow out now, as I see you are in fact, a me person. Kudos to you for having thick skin, I applaud that and it is a fine trait. Sadly, that trait sometimes goes hand in hand with callousness and general rude attitudes, and that is not, in my opinion, a fine trait at all. (Not saying you are this way, as I don't know you personally, just what I have seen via forum)

I will always care if my words hurt people, and I will always disagree that "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". After 4 years of verbal abuse from my ex-husband, being told no one would ever want me, that I was lucky to have him, and that I was trash, I know words CAN and DO hurt. I grew some thick skin after I finally left him, but I try to always take care when talking in general because I am aware not everyone has thick skin. I feel very strongly about this subject, and I apologize for those looking for a caging debate. I've helped steer this entirely off topic, and to the OP, I hope you got a decent answer out of all of this ;)

But alas, there is a time when it is best to bow out. Debating one another about something we both aren't going to budge on, is redundant and not very fascinating for the readers. I enjoyed the discussion though, and it was interesting to see the different opinions on the natural vs rack set up.

Edit: Actually, you are probably not a "Me" person entirely. As you stated, you talked someone through their offensive remarks. That's great, honestly. So many could not do that. I applaud you for your ability to keep a cool head when faced with such blatant disregard for other people.

To the OP ignore your friend and keep your animal the way you want to keep them if their needs are met than you are doing a great job with your animals and don't anyone tell you otherwise.

To Crotalids how long have you been working with Ball Pythons again? :rolleyes: and who are you to judge one's passion based on the way they keep their animals?

I was gonna write a lengthy post and then I changed my mind, after reading your answers it is clear to me that you have a very LIMITED experience when it comes to BP (yes this thread is about Ball Pythons not Gaboon or other hots) and therefore I won't waste my time except to say that you are having a great start on this forum judging other based on YOUR opinion and lack of experience. :gj:

Now my take on BP housing, to me as long as the animal's need are met and the animal healthy, feeding and stress free that's all that matter. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoseyReps

And that, is exactly what is wrong with a lot of people. Not caring if they offend, or hurt people. I will bow out now, as I see you are in fact, a me person. Kudos to you for having thick skin, I applaud that and it is a fine trait. Sadly, that trait sometimes goes hand in hand with callousness and general rude attitudes, and that is not, in my opinion, a fine trait at all. (Not saying you are this way, as I don't know you personally, just what I have seen via forum)

I will always care if my words hurt people, and I will always disagree that "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". After 4 years of verbal abuse from my ex-husband, being told no one would ever want me, that I was lucky to have him, and that I was trash, I know words CAN and DO hurt. I grew some thick skin after I finally left him, but I try to always take care when talking in general because I am aware not everyone has thick skin. I feel very strongly about this subject, and I apologize for those looking for a caging debate. I've helped steer this entirely off topic, and to the OP, I hope you got a decent answer out of all of this ;)

But alas, there is a time when it is best to bow out. Debating one another about something we both aren't going to budge on, is redundant and not very fascinating for the readers. I enjoyed the discussion though, and it was interesting to see the different opinions on the natural vs rack set up.

Edit: Actually, you are probably not a "Me" person entirely. As you stated, you talked someone through their offensive remarks. That's great, honestly. So many could not do that. I applaud you for your ability to keep a cool head when faced with such blatant disregard for other people.

---

I'm not a 'me' person at all, it's hard to judge someone's intentions over the Internet. But I do say what I feel, I don't see the point in lying to people and beating around the bush. But that's a whole different topic :)

To FIREBLADE,
Shed your peer based insecurities and stand confident that you are doing the right thing for your animals and less importantly, yourself.

I personally like the "nature" housing (as if any of us [average Americans] know how the African Savannah looks) but I only want a couple of animals total, ever. If I were to want a large collection, I would keep in a tub rack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

To the OP ignore your friend and keep your animal the way you want to keep them if their needs are met than you are doing a great job with your animals and don't anyone tell you otherwise.

To Crotalids how long have you been working with Ball Pythons again? :rolleyes: and who are you to judge one's passion based on the way they keep their animals?

I was gonna write a lengthy post and then I changed my mind, after reading your answers it is clear to me that you have a very LIMITED experience when it comes to BP (yes this thread is about Ball Pythons not Gaboon or other hots) and therefore I won't waste my time except to say that you are having a great start on this forum judging other based on YOUR opinion and lack of experience. :gj:

Now my take on BP housing, to me as long as the animal's need are met and the animal healthy, feeding and stress free that's all that matter. :gj:

---

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're acting as if Royals are a hard species to keep. Anyone with half a brain cell can keep them, hence why they're often touted as a 'starter' snake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're acting as if Royals are a hard species to keep. Anyone with half a brain cell can keep them, hence why they're often touted as a 'starter' snake.

---

I NEVER said they were hard to keep I am sure that even you could keep one as long as you meet your criteria in bold, I just pointed out how RIDICULOUS you sounded trying to tell people who have thriving animals how they should keep their animals and why.

And why should they keep them like that again? Because of your experienced on the subject matter and the fact that you know better?

Can you prove to me that they would thrive better in a natural environment? (which btw good luck with re-creating a thermite mount in your enclosure :rolleyes:).

The fact is YOU never kept any BP or other snake in tubs and yet you are positive that people doing so are just wrong so again who are you to tell people their way is the wrong way? (Not that I care btw)

I am not the judgmental one here rubbing people the wrong way talking about something I have no experience with (You have no experience with BP and no experience keeping BP in tubs) and being condescending to them because they do not do what you deem acceptable.

I will say it again I do not care how one's keeps his animal so long their need are met.

Hence my "Edit" line Crotalids, I retracted my first assumption, I left it in text because I would not want one to assume I was trying to hide my first assumption.

And I will jump in here, not on the off topic debate I was flaring, but on what you stated to Deborah.

Just because a species is generally an easy keeper, doesn't mean that they don't have specific requirements and notable tendencies. I believe, and I'm not Deborah, so this is just what I took from it, that she was trying to say you are basing your opinion on what is best for a Ball Python based on zero experience. Telling people what or how to keep an animal, that you have no experience with personally, is generally frowned upon.

I would also add, that just because they are a starter snake, doesn't mean they don't require knowledge. Again, look at the hundreds of thousands of ball pythons that end up given away, or at shelters, or rescued, or dead, because the person didn't have the knowledge required to care for them properly. Or if they did, they didn't care enough to do so, which is an entirely different beast on it's own.

Any animal you take responsibility for requires knowledge. Even a little goldfish, hamster, dog, cat etc.

Before I acquired my first ball python, I had no idea that an UTH required a thermostat, that BPs required 50-60% humidity, that 2 hides are best, or that they are basically really pretty pet rocks in reference to activity levels. I learned these things before I got my first bp because I wanted to make sure I was taking care of my animal properly. But it required me learning, if I hadn't gone looking for the information, my bp would be suffering now because of it. So yes, it requires a bit more than half a brain cell. Not hots by any means, but a knowledge base none the less.

Edit: Deborah beat me in reply swiftness. Oh well :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're acting as if Royals are a hard species to keep. Anyone with half a brain cell can keep them, hence why they're often touted as a 'starter' snake.

---

Anyone with half a brain cell can keep hots, even Gabbies or Rhino's. Which, by the way, are not "burrowers". They are slow and sluggish and like to hide in leaves or brush. They are ambush hunters. Hence the pretty colors and patterns which help them blend into the leaves on the ground.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

I NEVER said they were hard to keep I am sure that even you could keep one as long as you meet your criteria in bold, I just pointed out how RIDICULOUS you sounded trying to tell people who have thriving animals how they should keep their animals and why.

And why should they keep them like that again? Because of your experienced on the subject matter and the fact that you know better?

Can you prove to me that they would thrive better in a natural environment? (which btw good luck with re-creating a thermite mount in your enclosure :rolleyes:).

The fact is YOU never kept any BP or other snake in tubs and yet you are positive that people doing so are just wrong so again who are you to tell people their way is the wrong way? (Not that I care btw)

I am not the judgmental one here rubbing people the wrong way talking about something I have no experience with (You have no experience with BP and no experience keeping BP in tubs) and being condescending to them because they do not do what you deem acceptable.

I will say it again I do not care how one's keeps his animal so long their need are met.

---

Have you even read the thread? I never said there is anything wrong with tubs. My Gaboon vipers are in tubs right now...

Just because i haven't kept them myself doesn't mean i don't know anything about them. My friends keep and breed them, i know more than my fair share thanks. It's all opinion at the end of the day, i think my way is right and the others wrong. Simple as, it's not a big deal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Anyone with half a brain cell can keep hots, even Gabbies or Rhino's. Which, by the way, are not "burrowers". They are slow and sluggish and like to hide in leaves or brush. They are ambush hunters. Hence the pretty colors and patterns which help them blend into the leaves on the ground.

---

I used 'burrowers' loosely, as they like to bury themselves in the substrate and just leave their heads exposed.

I'm not denying that anyone with half a brain cell can keep hots. But you give a nasicornis or rhinoceros/gabonica to someone inexperienced it's quite likely it will end up dying, give royal to someone inexperienced and 99% of the time it will be fine. You obviously don't know anything about Bitis as a genus by your statement "They are slow and sluggish".

Here, here's a shovel...keep on digging :rolleyes:

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

LOOK! I brought enough for everyone! Sit back and enjoy the show! ;) :D

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/30/5u5umuty.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I used 'burrowers' loosely, as they like to bury themselves in the substrate and just leave their heads exposed.

I'm not denying that anyone with half a brain cell can keep hots. But you give a nasicornis or rhinoceros/gabonica to someone inexperienced it's quite likely it will end up dying, give royal to someone inexperienced and 99% of the time it will be fine. You obviously don't know anything about Bitis as a genus by your statement "They are slow and sluggish".

---

Actually I happen to know quite a bit about Bitis nasicornis, Rhinoceros vipers, and used to raise them. Western Rhino's to be more specific. They are almost identical to Gabbies (Bitis Gabonica) hence the same group name.
They are fat, slow and lazy vipers. They are known to lay in wait for pray to come walking by for days. Now they do have a lightning fast strike, don't get me wrong. They are still rather slow and sluggish
:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Actually I happen to know quite a bit about Bitis nasicornis, Rhinoceros vipers, and used to raise them. Western Rhino's to be more specific. They are almost identical to Gabbies (Bitis Gabonica) hence the same group name.
They are fat, slow and lazy vipers. They are known to lay in wait for pray to come walking by for days. Now they do have a lightning fast strike, don't get me wrong. They are still rather slow and sluggish
:cool:

---

Almost identical? Far from it.

They are very different, in care requirements and in behavior. You have obviously not worked with Gaboons enough to witness a pissed off adult in full flow, they are NOT sluggish and slow. They may appear to be on the outside, but when they are in a bad mood they're one of the most formidable snakes on the planet. Ask any experienced venomous handler, if a Gaboon is 'Sluggish and slow'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Just because i haven't kept them myself doesn't mean i don't know anything about them. My friends keep and breed them, i know more than my fair share thanks. It's all opinion at the end of the day, i think my way is right and the others wrong. Simple as, it's not a big deal.
.

---

You're comparing your second hand knowledge with people who actually care for and breed royals.
Many people who responded to you have been breeding balls for years. So are you saying that their techniques are wrong?

And if you really did know about ball pythons, then you wouldn't be a one man debate team on this particular subject.....

Either way, since you have no keeping experience with the species, it's difficult to find your words credible..........



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Have you even read the thread? I never said there is anything wrong with tubs. My Gaboon vipers are in tubs right now...

---

You didn't?

Quote:

---

a lot of the time racks are used so people can cram in as many snakes as they can. Which is wrong again.

---

And telling people how they should do something is not a way to tell them they do it wrong? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Every single one has a naturalistic enclosure, that's how it should be.

---

Quote:

---

we as keepers should try to replicate that as closely as possible.

---

Quote:

---

But it's my view that every snake should be provided with an enclosure close to their real habitat

---

Why because YOU do? Because you know better? Who are you to tell people what they should do when what they do works for their animal?

And again who are you to pass judgment like those?

Quote:

---

It shows no passion at all.

---

Quote:

---

If that isn't a lack of passion then i don't know what is.

---

Quote:

---

how do you think it shows any passion when people keep their snakes in a viv/tub

---

Quote:

---

It's a lack of willingness to put the extra time in to clean naturalistic enclosures?

---

Hope you can handle being on a forum with people who lack your passion :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

You're comparing your second hand knowledge with people who actually care for and breed royals.
Many people who responded to you have been breeding balls for years. So are you saying that their techniques are wrong?

And if you really did know about ball pythons, then you wouldn't be a one man debate team on this particular subject.....

Either way, since you have no keeping experience with the species, it's difficult to find your words credible..........



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

---

This isn't Royal specific. Naturalistic enclosures cannot be applied to only Royals, I don't care what the snake is. But it's my view that every snake should be provided with an enclosure close to their real habitat, i don't need to have owned every single snake in the world to make that statement. It's a matter of opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Almost identical? Far from it.

They are very different, in care requirements and in behavior. You have obviously not worked with Gaboons enough to witness a pissed off adult in full flow, they are NOT sluggish and slow. They may appear to be on the outside, but when they are in a bad mood they're one of the most formidable snakes on the planet. Ask any experienced venomous handler, if a Gaboon is 'Sluggish and slow'

---

You make me think that YOU don't really deal with either gabbi’s or rhino's. They are virtually identical in care and in behavior. They live within the same region of Africa, albeit one more to the west and the other to the east but their geographical areas do overlap. They again are slow, fat lazy vipers. Their bursts of speed are short lived. Their strikes as I said are lightning fast. What makes them so formidable is their venom and the fact that they mostly never let go of their prey..... they are fat a lazy as I said and don’t really want to go hunting for the dead food item. lol They have one of the most potent venoms to boot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

You didn't?



And telling people how they should do something is not a way to tell them they do it wrong? :rolleyes:





Why because YOU do?

And again who are you to pass judgment like those?









Hope you can handle being on a forum with people who lack your passion :rolleyes:

---

Just because something is accepted doesn't mean it's right, in this case breeders and keepers have made it acceptable to cram royals into small racking systems.

Maybe try to copy the full quote next time as one of them doesn't make sense - "how do you think it shows any passion when people keep their snakes in a viv/tub"

I can put the same question to you, who are you to pass judgement on what i'm saying..

It's all just an opinion, get over it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

You make me think that YOU don't really deal with either gabbi’s or rhino's. They are virtually identical in care and in behavior. They live within the same region of Africa, albeit one more to the west and the other to the east but their geographical areas do overlap. They again are slow, fat lazy vipers. Their bursts of speed are short lived. Their strikes as I said are lightning fast. What makes them so formidable is their venom and the fact that they mostly never let go of their prey..... they are fat a lazy as I said and don’t really want to go hunting for the dead food item. lol They have one of the most potent venoms to boot.

---

Oh really? How about i take a picture of me handling one of my Gaboon's for you tomorrow? And you can take a few pics of you handling some Gab's also to prove you have experience with them.

They are not identical in care and behavior at all. Nasicornis are incredibly prone to stress, and in general are far more nervous than Gaboons. If you're so experienced in this matter please do tell me on the whole what is the different between the two Gaboons in temperament.

Please tell me how you would keep each of the three species, Bitis nasicornis, Bitis rhinoceros and Bitis gabonica - The two gaboons listed, are two very different species in themselves.

Again you proved you don't know much about the topic. Venom toxicity from the three Bitis species listed above is low. It is the yield that makes them dangerous and the size of the fangs, allowing for envenomation deep into muscle tissue and into main arteries.

True, they are lazy. But you obviously have not witnessed a pissed off Gaboon, their burst of speed are short but powerful, and with their muscles they make it almost impossible for you to hook them properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

Just because something is accepted doesn't mean it's right

---

Because YOUR way is more acceptable and/or right simply because this is how it's done by you and the majority of people on european forums? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

I can put the same question to you, who are you to pass judgement on what i'm saying.

---

Who am I? well I am definitely not someone judging others and being condescending to them because of the way they keep THEIR animals, but I am definitely not one to hold my tongue when someone acts like you either, you don't see me pass judgment on the way you keep your animals do you?

Again many successful ways to keep animals so long their needs are met........... or maybe only one way so long it's yours :rolleye2:

Anyway enough time wasted on you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

This isn't Royal specific. Naturalistic enclosures cannot be applied to only Royals, I don't care what the snake is. But it's my view that every snake should be provided with an enclosure close to their real habitat, i don't need to have owned every single snake in the world to make that statement. It's a matter of opinion.

---

But this is a Ball python forum on a ball python husbandry subforum topic.
We are all ball keepers talking about our particular species in a rack system. You're the only one who has really gone off topic with hots. What applies to one species may or may not be applied to one species.

And yes. Its a matter of opinion, but you still say your way is right and we are wrong. I even quoted that in my last post......


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

As long as the snake is healthy and doesn't have any problems who cares if its a tub, rack or tank? I keep all of mine in tanks and they're all doing fine. A friend if mine has all of his in racks and they're all doing fine. In the end its all personal opinion anyway so why argue with someone who doesn't do it your way?