Proof on the Spider gene. OWAL take a look

I heard a rumor of someone producing a super-woma that looked like a regular woma, proving it to be true dominant. Not a whole lot of people working with them, and few have ever tried to produce a super.

I would like to see some evidence of this experiment. Sounds like an aweful lot of snakes for a private collector to take care of just to see if Spider X Spider is lethal and alot of money to house and feed never mind the time it takes. It would have to be at least a 4 year experiment and that's only if the original pairs were purchased as adults. It would take 2-3 years to raise up the female babies to beed them! Also a Spider X Normal producing a Bee does not make any sense! How do we know that this is not just some kind of prank or BS? Kevin at NERD has said he did Spider X Spider pairing many times with no deaths or Supers produced! I just don't buy this!

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Originally Posted by seeya205

I would like to see some evidence of this experiment. Sounds like an aweful lot of snakes for a private collector to take care of just to see if Spider X Spider is lethal and alot of money to house and feed never mind the time it takes. It would have to be at least a 4 year experiment and that's only if the original pairs were purchased as adults. It would take 2-3 years to raise up the female babies to beed them! Also a Spider X Normal producing a Bee does not make any sense! How do we know that this is not just some kind of prank or BS? Kevin at NERD has said he did Spider X Spider pairing many times with no deaths or Supers produced! I just don't buy this!

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It was a pastel x normal from the spider x spider offspring and I'm not sure if this is real or fake but a interesting thread to read. Hope to find out more info about this!

Well if its real the OP can come on here and provide all the pairing details, photos maybe? What kind of proof do we want, I want to seel all the data, I would think the OP would be more than willing to provide that and their credentials?

Photos, breeding records, dates. Actually I'd be really interested to see a picture that proves that the OP had/has THAT many spiders. I did some brief research on his post history.

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My first morph was way back when when the yb's were really slippin through eveeryones fingers and I actually got it at a pet shop for like 150 at the time. I can't remember what year it was but when I finally figured out what he was I had sold him....... Stupid me... After that it was a pastel male paid like 75 for him and he is a pretty decent one about a year old and almost no brown out on him.

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That was posted in 2009. How does someone go from one yellowbelly to one pastel, and then to at least 30 (adult) spider females? If he purchased 30 adult spider females in 2009 he would barely have enough time to have bred their offspring and come up with these results.

Interesting, and judging by the lack of response from the OP im starting to be sceptical. Hope its for real, that would be great! But yeah, OP can you please send us the details!

And this was posted in December of 2009:

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Moving out of state and have to get some money up so I am selling my entire collection. Boas are norms 1.2, BP's 1.0 pastel, 1.1 het pieds with paperwork, 0.1 het red axanthic 1.4 normals, Normal JPC have pics somewhere not exactly sure at this time but if you would like them feel free to email me tattlife2001@yahoo.com or PM through here. All normal females have bred to the pastel for the BP's. Make an offer for whole group or an individual animal.

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In 2009 he did not have 30 adult spider females. So let's say at the beginning of 2010 he purchased them. Let's say that he bred them and they laid for him. The offspring of that first generation would only be 2 years old. It's getting more and more unlikely that this experiment actually did happen.

He said that normal to spider breeding produced 1100ish eggs. That is from 150 or so spiders from the spider x spider breeding. If half of those are males, 75 breeder males at 1.5 years old he would need about 100 normal females to breed those males too, then the 75 female spiders would need to be three years old and be bred to normal males to get the balance of the 1100 eggs. That is one heck of a breeding operation to have 200+ adult BPs, I hate to not believe a person, but this does sound a little out there.

And this was posted in 2011:

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All spiders wobble. It could be as miniscule as the head tilting just a tiny bit to severe corkscrewing but they all do wobble. I have a few spiders and have seen a lot more and every one of them wobbles. Even the combos wobble. It comes with having a spider. Some people will not have them due to the wobble but I personally think that if it doesn't inhibit the snakes ability to live then there is no real problem with it.

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He says he has "a few" spiders. Generally "a few" means less than 10, let alone 30.

I assumed if we got an actual name it would be some known large breeder (maybe one of the ones that doesn't post a lot) but good idea searching the old posts. Hard to believe anyone would post misinformation to hinder progress on figuring this out so hope it's legit.

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Just to show some numbers on this that I have produced myself. I have bred Spider to Spider 25 times in total, the last time was 4 years ago. Out of all of them I had 1 slug and 3 eggs go bad during incubation. I did use ultra sound and every number is the exact same for follicle count vs eggs/slugs. I was very lucky and hatched 5 males the first year and they were breeding normal females the next year and were not homo spiders. The females that were raised up that were spider and bred to normal males produced the standard outcome. This year is the last year I will be doing these breedings and currently have 91 eggs incubating from those pairings. So we will see. But so far nothing at all has shown any form of lethality or a super form at all. So with the amount of breedings done on this is a decent amount for a base case study and more can be done to add to it. As a side note there were no multi gene animals used through the entire process it was only spider to spider and then offspring to normals.

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Posted a few months ago. He says he has bred spider to spider 25 times, and the last time was four years ago. Yet in 2009 (3 years ago) he stated that his first morphs were a yellowbelly and then a pastel male. No mention of spiders. And he says that this year he has 91 eggs incubating, which is a bit far off from the numbers he originally posted in this thread.

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And now I'm done, time for an Internet break, lol. I sincerely hope that my brain is just broken today because these quotes seem to be adding up to something rather strange. I dismissed this thread (from 2009) at first, though it stuck in the back of my mind as odd.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?91377-Spider-question

This quote in particular is troubling:

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Ok results are in and I had 1326 clutches that were from female spiders and the total eggs from female spiders were.................................. 7956 that is an average of 6 eggs to a clutch...

I had a lot more males so to make it more fair I took a chart and wrote down all th females and how many eggs laid..... then took and matched things up... So say this chutch had 5 eggs in it froma female spider i found a clutch that had 5 eggs from a male spider.... I did not look at the outcome of each clutch until I had the exact numbers of eggs and clutches done and then I took and added up spiders produced the males and spiders produced by the females....

So who is ready for the results?????????


From male spiders bred to normal females the total number of spiders produced in 1326 clutches of eggs with a total count of 7956 eggs was 3291 spiders................41.36%

From a male normal bred to a female spider the total number of spiders produced in 1326 clutches of eggs with a total count of 7956 eggs was 5264 spiders....................66.16%

So I have concluded that from these results and the data I recieved the spider gene is more dominant in females and is more likely to be passed to offspring than it is from a male...

Thank you all for your help. Now to find out if this is actually true or just the clutches I had for reference so I am going to start a massive spider project.

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He says that his male spiders to normal females produced the EXACT SAME amount of clutches with the EXACT SAME amount of eggs as his female spiders to normal males. And he claims to be working with thousands of animals.

Now I really am done, maybe someone else will read through this all and tell me I'm paranoid/dumb or that I've been spending too much time on the BOI. I would like to know what others think.

I might be wrong, but I would think if there were 30+ pairings of spider x spider, even if there is no super spider, the odds would work out to where all the eggs from one clutch would be all spider.

That kind of does it for me right there. Forget that the numbers are the same, I find it very un-likely that someone has that many animals, time, money to produce 16000 eggs from spider to spider pairings........ But whats the point, not like their getting anything out of jerking us around except maybe a laugh.....

ok so i started reading through that thread and it looks like the op did not do the breeding but compiled the data from other breeders..

I had to re-read that post with the exact same numbers, so its not his breeding, its compiled data, and he took the data and matched it so there were the same number of breedings- and clutch size for both pairings, so thats not fishy at all. I really wish the OP would come on and give us his information so we can put this to rest.

TROLL!!! No way this stuff is legit. I have never known someone to breed spider to spider in all my times on internet forums and to think that he got that much info from that many clutches of spiderXspider and subsequent pairing of offspring is just too much for me to believe. In my opinion the OPs silence is pretty damning in this case.

OP was on today and decided to ignore this thread quite telling.

Darn.

BTW, TSK is doing a spider X spider project. Nowhere near the numbers claimed in this thread, but when they do give data you can bet it will be accurate and reliable.

Glad to hear that.

Wow.. Really pretty dissapointed with the way this went. I too assumed it must have been a professional breeder who was using his own facility and rescources to breed on such a large scale, but the numbers timelines and data dont add up. not to mention even if he rid breed on that level, taking a year or two to breed spiders and their offspring would financially cripple him and his business. He would not only be taking the value of spiders and dropping it by flooding the market with them(ruining his own sales) but they arent exactly high doller to begin with, and would never even make his money back in a timely fashion assuming he purchased the first generation as adults. Its finicially a terrible idea and not at all worth it to work with those numbers. Im glad someone blew the whistle and stopped people who generally take others at their word(like me) from spreading false results. I want to actually know whats going on with the spider morph though = ( Youd think if he was going to lie about results he would have put more work into it though. A trained chimp can look at old posts.

-Riveran

I think we can officialy say "myth busted" :). I wouldnt mind seeing this on a smaller scale, say 1 male and 4-5 breeder spider females. That would not cripple a person and I think it could be proven on even that small of a scale. 5 females laying 5 eggs each, 25 total, 12 spiders, 6 males and 6 females. In a year and a half the 6 males could be bred to 6 normals, if any of them throw an all spider clutch it could be attempted again with multiple females the next year. So it would be a 3 year case study minimum, but I think that would be a big enough sample.

I think a group of breeders should get together via email, and determine how the data would be recorded, and all do like 2 spider x spider pairs each. No one would have to take a terrible financial hit buying housing and feeding mass amounts, and as long as the data is well recorded all of the results could be compiled together. If you got 10 breeders here on BP.net, that would give you at bare minimum 20 clutches to study. Plus ive seen people around here claim theyve known other breeders for upwards of 10 years. If you can maintain a business relationship for that long I dont see why youd lose touch once you started a long term experiment like this. Just my 2 cents = P Im not really established enough to do the experiment myself, but I am curious like you wouldnt beleive.

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Originally Posted by Riv

I think a group of breeders should get together via email, and determine how the data would be recorded, and all do like 2 spider x spider pairs each. No one would have to take a terrible financial hit buying housing and feeding mass amounts, and as long as the data is well recorded all of the results could be compiled together. If you got 10 breeders here on BP.net, that would give you at bare minimum 20 clutches to study. Plus ive seen people around here claim theyve known other breeders for upwards of 10 years. If you can maintain a business relationship for that long I dont see why youd lose touch once you started a long term experiment like this. Just my 2 cents = P Im not really established enough to do the experiment myself, but I am curious like you wouldnt beleive.

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I think this could work and would be interesting but I dont see it happening. I for one have the space and the ability to feed, but what I do not have is the 2k plus euro to buy two breeder pairs. And I could not justify spending that on something that would not further any of my projects. I honestly dont think even a larger breeder would be willing to spend the time, space and feeding costs, no matter how little, for something that will not further their projects any. But maybe im worng?

Frankly youre not wrong. Anyone with the right rescources is in breeding not just for the joy of breeding, but to make some money as well. And it just doesnt make sense to sink money into spider x spider experiments, unless of course youre making more than enough money at the time, have a little extra space and breed your own feeders. Than I wouldnt see why not. But only so many are in that position, and unless you like that sorta stuff it would absolutely make more sense to have that extra pair of various multi trait morphs.

In theory it is a good experiment, until i see pictures, of spider adults used in breeding, all offspring produced, then pictures of the offspring breeding, i have a very hard time believing, someone has the space, time, and money to do this type of experiment. I find it hard, that some of the big breeders would have the resources to do this, on this large of a scale. It would take a lot of money and time to complete this experiment on this large of a scale.
and where is this bumble bee produced? can we at least see pics of the adults that were breed to produce this "Bee"?
I am saying this "experiment" is fake until the OP post pictures of his adult spiders, and all offspring(or at least of all the spiders produced), and this "bee"

The first mating doesn't have to be spider x spider with no other mutant genes. Here is a mating that produced 5 babies that could have a pair of spider mutant genes.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-x-bee-results

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Originally Posted by tattlife2001

So there you have it. Those are the end results. Let me know what you think.

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http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...oll-B-Gone.jpg

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...oll-B-Gone.jpg

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That is good :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

The one that really got me is that he got a bee from a Pastel X Normal pairing and the normal came from one of the Spider X Spider pairings. That would mean it has Het Spider! Not possible! Kevin from NERD already had said in a video that he has done many Spider X Spider pairings over the years and never had a Super or lethal gene issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR...ture=endscreen

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Originally Posted by seeya205

The one that really got me is that he got a bee from a Pastel X Normal pairing and the normal came from one of the Spider X Spider pairings. That would mean it has Het Spider! Not possible! Kevin from NERD already had said in a video that he has done many Spider X Spider pairings over the years and never had a Super or lethal gene issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR...ture=endscreen

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If there is nothing fishy about that part of the story, that "normal" even looks paradox, nothing weird there really, its reproductive organs are spider. A normal from a spider x spider is not weird regardless of how you believe the gene works. Im not sure what you mean by the het spider thing, but all spiders are hets, just visual hets.

It is disappointing, i have been talking to him since he made the comment about doing 25x spider x spider breedings. He was never very prompt with responses but i figured he should of responded by now. No doubt the time lines of his post history dont line up. Back to where we were before, not knowing a whole lot.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

If there is nothing fishy about that part of the story, that "normal" even looks paradox, nothing weird there really, its reproductive organs are spider. A normal from a spider x spider is not weird regardless of how you believe the gene works. Im not sure what you mean by the het spider thing, but all spiders are hets, just visual hets.

It is disappointing, i have been talking to him since he made the comment about doing 25x spider x spider breedings. He was never very prompt with responses but i figured he should of responded by now. No doubt the time lines of his post history dont line up. Back to where we were before, not knowing a whole lot.

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Spiders are NOT visual hets. There is no super form.

Spiders ARE visual hets, whether there is a super form or not. 'Het', short for 'heterozygous', means that the animal carries one mutant gene copy, and one normal gene copy, on the same locus. That is all that it means, and nothing else is implied.
The fact that spiders apparently cannot be homozygous (carry 2 mutant copies of the gene on the same locus) does not in any way change that.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Spiders ARE visual hets, whether there is a super form or not. 'Het', short for 'heterozygous', means that the animal carries one mutant gene copy, and one normal gene copy, on the same locus. That is all that it means, and nothing else is implied.
The fact that spiders apparently cannot be homozygous (carry 2 mutant copies of the gene on the same locus) does not in any way change that.

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I don't think that's what it means. :confusd:

http://biology.about.com/od/genetics...terozygous.htm

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Oh, like heterozygous versus homozygous, got it. My bad. :oops:

I am a friend of the OP and am responding on his behalf in sorts. The reason he has not replied is because he passed away. Before you start attacking someone try to learn who they are and what they stand for. He didn't bred snakes to make money or anything close to that. He bred snakes because he loved it. He would breed all normals if that was all that was available. I can guarantee that he did the breedings as stated, he did mess up the end numbers but that is human error and misreading the numbers nothing more than that. The data is now in my hands and I am finishing what he started and bringing this all to a close for him. All data pertaining to this and everything else he was working on will be available when it is all put into a format that can be published and marketed. I will not be posting anything on here for it until the book is released and then it will just be a link to where to buy it.

Thank you and good bye.

I still smell a troll here. If not, I'm sorry for your loss.

Could a mod maybe check the IP adress of the new user with one post that knew just where to find this thread against the IP for the OP? Not that it would be definitive if they were different but it would be definitive if they were the same. It is just my curiousity and nothing else, so if you don't care to or don't have the time then no worries.

If it helps the OP lived in Washington state and I am in Michigan born and raised. It is great to know that you can smell a toll so far away though. I am now going to BEG a Mod to do an IP check. And just so Other things are cleared up right away. I just made this account to day. Why? Because we were waiting for a few legal issues to be cleared up and I was not going to post anything until that was completed. The OP was my best friend and that is the only reason I am even coming to his defense on here and that is the only reason I even posted anything. Please keep all negative comments to yourself about my friend.

Edit:
The reason I knew where to find this is because his wife let me know about it.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

I still smell a troll here. If not, I'm sorry for your loss.

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x2 ...but I know that if I passed away, I honestly don't think a person would post so extensively on a forum on my behalf. I think that even my closest friends, heck even husband (though I doubt he'd say anything) would simply say I had passed away... but likely not go to the extent of searching out every forum I was a member of and addressing an unanswered thread.... *shrugs shoulders*

As for IP addresses, who said you couldn't have moved? Just sayin'....

Right, because the OP could never have moved and or gotten a new computer, huh? I'm not trying to be negative, but the original thread smelled of fishiness and trolls and my hunch tells me that you sudden post does as well.

Again, if I am wrong , and if what you say is true, then I am sorry for your loss, but I am too cautious a person to take your out of the blue post lightly.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Right, because the OP could never have moved and or gotten a new computer, huh? I'm not trying to be negative, but the original thread smelled of fishiness and trolls and my hunch tells me that you sudden post does as well.

Again, if I am wrong , and if what you say is true, then I am sorry for your loss, but I am too cautious a person to take your out of the blue post lightly.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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I concur

Considering this turn of events, we should just let this thread die...

Honestly that would be pretty extreme to post on a single forum wouldn't it? I understand where you are coming from and short of providing a death certificate there is nothing that I can do to make up your mind. It is not my right to do so so I will not. After I have completed his work and post the information on where and how to get the book on this thread I will no longer be on this forum.

I posted as his best friend and at the request of his wife to let people know that the results will be available with thousands of pictures, all time stamped, with all the text data in the near future. There is a little more work that needs to go in to this book. His full plan was to have an answer for the spider gene, have an answer for the pinstripe gene, and have an answer for the female desert issues. He completed one of those parts and I will be completing the rest for him. After that is completed then the results will be made public for everyone to see.

I am sorry if I came off as rude previously but understand that from my point of view I was being attacked and still feel that way. I am a snake lover and love working with them but after this I am not sure I want to be a part of this community any longer.

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Originally Posted by sho220

Considering this turn of events, we should just let this thread die...

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+

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Originally Posted by TheTruth

Honestly that would be pretty extreme to post on a single forum wouldn't it? I understand where you are coming from and short of providing a death certificate there is nothing that I can do to make up your mind. It is not my right to do so so I will not. After I have completed his work and post the information on where and how to get the book on this thread I will no longer be on this forum.

I posted as his best friend and at the request of his wife to let people know that the results will be available with thousands of pictures, all time stamped, with all the text data in the near future. There is a little more work that needs to go in to this book. His full plan was to have an answer for the spider gene, have an answer for the pinstripe gene, and have an answer for the female desert issues. He completed one of those parts and I will be completing the rest for him. After that is completed then the results will be made public for everyone to see.

I am sorry if I came off as rude previously but understand that from my point of view I was being attacked and still feel that way. I am a snake lover and love working with them but after this I am not sure I want to be a part of this community any longer.

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= I agree. Good luck with your book, and goodbye.

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Originally Posted by TheTruth

Honestly that would be pretty extreme to post on a single forum wouldn't it? I understand where you are coming from and short of providing a death certificate there is nothing that I can do to make up your mind. It is not my right to do so so I will not. After I have completed his work and post the information on where and how to get the book on this thread I will no longer be on this forum.

I posted as his best friend and at the request of his wife to let people know that the results will be available with thousands of pictures, all time stamped, with all the text data in the near future. There is a little more work that needs to go in to this book. His full plan was to have an answer for the spider gene, have an answer for the pinstripe gene, and have an answer for the female desert issues. He completed one of those parts and I will be completing the rest for him. After that is completed then the results will be made public for everyone to see.

I am sorry if I came off as rude previously but understand that from my point of view I was being attacked and still feel that way. I am a snake lover and love working with them but after this I am not sure I want to be a part of this community any longer.

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If this is all on the up-and-up, how do you explain the conflicting posts where the OP says "I have a few spider pairs" at the time he was supposed to be breeding more Spiders than anyone on the planet? Meowmeowkazoo brought up a lot of interesting contradictions that don't seem to have answers.

And one more thing...creating a user name like "TheTruth" automatically has me suspicious that you're telling anything but....


But that's probably just me....

I'm not meaning to attack and I'm sorry that you feel that way. Curious points were brought up and more unanswered questions just came up as far as I'm concerned. Good luck with whatever work you are, in fact, doing.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by sho220

And one more thing...creating a user name like "TheTruth" automatically has me suspicious that you're telling anything but....


But that's probably just me....

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It isn't.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

The name comes from a wrestler most of you have most likely never heard of his name is Truth Martini and he now runs a wrestling school here he is someone I happen to admire as a person. As for the other questions they will be answered in the book. I will not post here again because it is a waste of my time and my life. I hope the best for everyone and as I said I will be posting a link where to buy the book when it is finished and you will all have all the answers you want with all the proof in the world. Enjoy your nights I have to leave here now. Good bye.

Can anyone find an obituary for Thomas N Rosati from either Spokane, WA or Wyandotte, MI?

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Originally Posted by TheTruth

The name comes from a wrestler most of you have most likely never heard of his name is Truth Martini and he now runs a wrestling school here he is someone I happen to admire as a person. As for the other questions they will be answered in the book. I will not post here again because it is a waste of my time and my life. I hope the best for everyone and as I said I will be posting a link where to buy the book when it is finished and you will all have all the answers you want with all the proof in the world. Enjoy your nights I have to leave here now. Good bye.

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May you be ever prosperous and successful with your, er, I mean your friend's infinite wisdom... and papers... and such.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Can anyone find an obituary for Thomas N Rosati from either Spokane, WA or Wyandotte, MI?

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Nope, found nothing....

Not sure if it's the same tattlife2001... http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/jus...re-theifs.html