Ball python "mills" *rant* (Not trying to offend anyone)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

I'm sorry guys... now I feel crummy and sad

---

Shun! lolol jk.

I think you have breeders confused with whole salers... That's a whole other beast to tackle in a discussion forum..

I have yet to see a breeder who didn't take good enough care of their animals who are also successfully producing offspring.

I HAVE seen several local shops where I will NEVER bring ANY of my animals near.. Poor lizards with mouth rot and IBD... Multiple species of snakes housed together competing for the same small water bowl because they have mites all over 'em... Not all the local shops are like this, but they DO exist.. They don't prey only on ball pythons either. Nile monitors, savannah monitors, various lizards, fish, and even mammals.

[QUOTE=Mike41793;1842625

I dont really like spiders that much, some are cool but some kinda freak me out. Ive been considering getting a tarantula though just bc i like to watch them.

[/QUOTE]

Off topic but I really HATE spiders. Yet I am intrigued by Tarantulas and have considered getting one too.

Anyway this has been a very interesting post keep up the good work folks! :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

Shun! lolol jk.

I think you have breeders confused with whole salers... That's a whole other beast to tackle in a discussion forum..

I have yet to see a breeder who didn't take good enough care of their animals who are also successfully producing offspring.

I HAVE seen several local shops where I will NEVER bring ANY of my animals near.. Poor lizards with mouth rot and IBD... Multiple species of snakes housed together competing for the same small water bowl because they have mites all over 'em... Not all the local shops are like this, but they DO exist..

---

Thanks, yea... whole salers (at least many, as I'm sure there ARE good ones) most definitely fit the type of people I was raging about. Like a local shop here that bought a whole shipment of sick frogs after a reptile show because they "were so cheap they just had to take the deal." The poor things were dying left and right and being housed in the same case as the rest of their stock and the guy was proud of himself because if he just sold a few of them he came out on top. The owner actually said this to me.

As far as breeders I guess I meant wanna-be-breeders, not established ones at all- as they clearly are taking care of their animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andybill

Off topic but I really HATE spiders. Yet I am intrigued by Tarantulas and have considered getting one too.

Anyway this has been a very interesting post keep up the good work folks! :gj:

---

I was a bit idk....sketchy maybe the right word about them, not really afraid but wouldn't touch or hold one. Then I got 'Rantula as a tiny, tiny little speck of a spiderling and very slowly got over it. At first I would just stroke her with the end of my hair, then I grew the cajones to pet her little butt with my finger and moved up to holding her.

Now she's huge and adorable and I'm not afraid at all! Although I never get to touch her anymore:rolleyes:, she built a nice little borrow and she only comes out when she wants, which is not when I'm messing with her. If she's happier I'm cool with it.

Quote:

---

In a puppy mill, dogs are kept in sub sub sub par conditions and exist solely to breed.

---

Not true at all. I know someone that has what you would call a "puppy mill". It is their business to produce "designer" puppies. Their animals are all well cared for. Some are pets, but most are just breeders.

But how is that different than a dairy farmer ?? Or a pig farmer ??


I have one big female normal that has produced 10+ eggs 4 years in a row for me (15 this year). I only feed her once a week but she always eats. To me, a ball python that breeds every year is telling you that what you are doing is working. You are providing the animal with proper food & water, proper housing, proper temps, proper humidity. Breeding dogs is child's play compared to breeding balls.

I'm just a small time breeder, but I'm going into every season knowing that the vast majority of babies I produce will be sold. I try to run it like a business in the sense that I keep track of all of my expenses so I know that my hobby is actually paying for itself and then some. My collection gets upgraded every year by money I make from selling babies.

My first addition this year is going to be an ultrasound machine. I want to maximize production. The work is going to be the same whether one of my girls produces 5 or 10 eggs. The money is going to be better on 10 so why not produce 10 ??

I know both sides of this debate. While all the breeders (except one) that I met were great, responsible people who cared about their snakes, I also know that some are not. My uncle, for example, bought about 20 burmese pythons about 15 years ago. He wanted to start a snake breeding business because it would make him loads of money. The snakes died within a week (All 20 :O). The guy actually turned out to be a sociopath in the end, so that might have played into it.

People like that DO exist, but luckily they are few and far between. BPs are great animals, and no matter what people do with them they should remember that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apple2

I know both sides of this debate. While all the breeders (except one) that I met were great, responsible people who cared about their snakes, I also know that some are not. My uncle, for example, bought about 20 burmese pythons about 15 years ago. He wanted to start a snake breeding business because it would make him loads of money. The snakes died within a week (All 20 :O). The guy actually turned out to be a sociopath in the end, so that might have played into it.

People like that DO exist, but luckily they are few and far between. BPs are great animals, and no matter what people do with them they should remember that.

---

That guy wouldn't be considered a "breeder". He's a failed keeper.

I have a lot of thoughts on this ... I'm going to try to avoid redundancy.

By and large I agree 100% that terms like "___ mill" ("puppy mill," "snake mill," "kitten mill," etc.) and "backyard breeder" are contrivances of the animal rights movement to try and help demonize all breeders. To many, if you're a large-scale breeder, you're a "mill;" if you're a small-scale breeder, you're a "BYB."

About the only people who manage to escape either label are those precious few small-scale breeders who also show their animals. In my experience these folks are often breeders who have bought into much of the animal rights rhetoric, and promote and propagate it by liberally using those terms to describe anyone who isn't them. I suspect that it's this mindset that the OP had originally bought into (minus the show aspect, of course, since there isn't much support for Royal Python shows).

I try not to use these terms for that reason. If I have to, though, I sometimes break it down into categories: "Mill breeder" describes a large-scale breeder who takes extremely poor care of the animals and is simply pumping out huge numbers of poor-quality animals to make a profit. "BYB" describes a small-scale breeder who takes extremely poor care of the animals and keeps them solely for the purpose of someday making a profit. Again, though, these are my personal definitions for terms that I prefer not to use. To many, "Mill" means "Any large-scale producer of animals" and "BYB" means "Any small-scale breeder." The net effect is to provide plenty of negative terms for any type of breeder, large or small, for-profit or not.

Nothing is black-and-white, and no breeder or even keeper of animals is going to do everything 100% perfect to please everyone. I met a breeder client at a small animal repro practice who could be easily described as a "puppy mill" (like JayCee's friend, she breeds "doodles," or whatever they're called). I don't love this craze of deliberate production of mixed-breed dogs -- far from it -- and what this woman does, I must admit, does rub me the wrong way. However, I can't deny that her dogs were in lovely condition and well-cared for. She was doing health clearances on all of her breeders. Last but most definitely not least, they had wonderful temperaments: Outgoing, loving, friendly. By contrast, another breeder had a show dog of a very large breed that is often the target of BSL. This dog was a Gr. CH but had to be muzzled for her ultrasound, and this dog's brother was described as "psychotic." I had much bigger ethical concerns about helping this woman propagate her "psychotic" Gr. CH line than about helping the "Doodle mill" woman. However, according to many, breeder "A" would be defined as a bona-fide puppy mill (bad, wrong, evil) while breeder "B" would be defined as a legitimate show breeder (good, okay, acceptable "reason" for breeding).

I don't have a problem with taking the animal's value into consideration when contemplating how far to go with veterinary care. In fact, I think that for most breeders it is the most sane and logical thing to do. I hate to say it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense for a breeder to pay thousands to have a female snake spayed due to ovarian cancer. At the end of the ordeal, he's out thousands of dollars and has no breeder to show for it. I would not oppose his decision to put the snake to sleep for financial reasons. This is a place where I'm sure many people will disagree, as it is a "production mindset," and a lot of people have a real problem with it. I don't oppose it, so long as the animal doesn't have to suffer.

What I do find infuriating is to see an animal that is suffering with an illness that's brought on by poor husbandry, that the owner cannot afford to fix -- and shouldn't HAVE to, as it could easily have been prevented. But, as has already been said, this is a whole different issue.

I'm sure I had more to rant on, but this is already way too long, so I'll leave off at that ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JayCee

Not true at all. I know someone that has what you would call a "puppy mill". It is their business to produce "designer" puppies. Their animals are all well cared for. Some are pets, but most are just breeders.

---

Sorry. I've just never heard the term "Puppy Mill" used in a non-negative way. I have always heard it as being a dog breeding facility gone bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I have a lot of thoughts on this ... I'm going to try to avoid redundancy.


I try not to use these terms for that reason. If I have to, though, I sometimes break it down into categories: "Mill breeder" describes a large-scale breeder who takes extremely poor care of the animals and is simply pumping out huge numbers of poor-quality animals to make a profit. "BYB" describes a small-scale breeder who takes extremely poor care of the animals and keeps them solely for the purpose of someday making a profit. Again, though, these are my personal definitions for terms that I prefer not to use. To many, "Mill" means "Any large-scale producer of animals" and "BYB" means "Any small-scale breeder." The net effect is to provide plenty of negative terms for any type of breeder, large or small, for-profit or not.

Nothing is black-and-white, and no breeder or even keeper of animals is going to do everything 100% perfect to please everyone. I met a breeder client at a small animal repro practice who could be easily described as a "puppy mill" (like JayCee's friend, she breeds "doodles," or whatever they're called). I don't love this craze of deliberate production of mixed-breed dogs -- far from it -- and what this woman does, I must admit, does rub me the wrong way. However, I can't deny that her dogs were in lovely condition and well-cared for. She was doing health clearances on all of her breeders. Last but most definitely not least, they had wonderful temperaments: Outgoing, loving, friendly. By contrast, another breeder had a show dog of a very large breed that is often the target of BSL. This dog was a Gr. CH but had to be muzzled for her ultrasound, and this dog's brother was described as "psychotic." I had much bigger ethical concerns about helping this woman propagate her "psychotic" Gr. CH line than about helping the "Doodle mill" woman. However, according to many, breeder "A" would be defined as a bona-fide puppy mill (bad, wrong, evil) while breeder "B" would be defined as a legitimate show breeder (good, okay, acceptable "reason" for breeding).

---

It doesn't sound to me like your friend runs a puppy mill. I live in Virginia and there are unfortunately many puppy mills here, down in North Carolina, in West Virginia, and in Pennsylvania.

Puppy mills are where dogs are crammed into kennels the size of bathroom and spend most of their lives there. They may or may not be fed regularly and may or may not get vet care. Your classier puppy mills will have a cement floor with a drain built in so the operator can simply hose the waste down through the fence. Or they have a wire floor so the waste falls through, making clean up easier (but not the dogs' paws). The dogs also receive almost no human interaction. This is a puppy mill. Our local animal shelter rescued 50 starving puppies from a single local puppy mill that was forced to close down several months ago. Does your friend run something of this nature?

There's nothing wrong with breeding dogs (or ball pythons, or anything else) for profit so let's not confuse a professional breeding facility with a puppy mill. The very definition of puppy mill is a breeding operation where profits are maximized at the expense of the dogs' well being.

There is no definition of "puppy mill". To animal rights extremists like PETA and HSUS, if you have the best cared for dogs in the world and breed them, they can label you a "puppy mill" and steal all your dogs, pose for some media shots, go dump the animals at several shelters that don't have the funding to care for them... and go on their merry way.

Some people will label EVERY single breeder of dogs as either a "puppy mill" or a "backyard breeder". No matter what. The media and the extremists have brainwashed everyone in the US that any person breeding dogs is a "bad" person who only cares about money, abuses and neglects the dogs and they are the sole reason that the cute puppy is getting killed in a shelter. It's not true. It's never been true.

If someone doesn't take care of their animals, they are "neglecting" them. If they mistreat them, they are "abusing" them. It doesn't matter if they are breeders, private owners, rescues or shelters. It is not more wrong to abuse a single ball python because you are bored or think snakes have no feelings.... than it is to starve a kennel full of dogs... than it is to beat a horse to death. The reason you own the animal doesn't matter as to whether you are abusing it or taking proper care of it.

Looking at all the advertisements on BP.net and knowing how much they cost, everyone here should understand that even though you are voicing your opinion on this forum, this is a business and making money is a part of it.

Most of the animals in breeders collections are sold over time. They are replaced with younger, and higher potential breeders, so to say one breeder is pushing them beyond their limits isn't true. The value in a breeders collections and the simple fact that one sick snake can lead to a disaster in a collection, most of the breeders I know maintain an impeccable operation with healthy and happy animals.

Those who don't, aren't successful doing this. I haven't come across anyone I would consider a "mill" in this business. If anything, the exact opposite. The largest breeders actually keep their snakes better than the hobbyist or pet owner.

Just how I feel.

most likely my next comment is going to annoy the OP, oh well, but this to me is a total troll post that has gone on to far.

can someone buy into the breeding game for profit, it is done by many year after year. however once they find the hard work involved is just to much to be bothered with, they sell out just as quick as they bought into it, allowing those of us in it for the fun/love of it great deals!.

Right--for someone who has DONE THEIR RESEARCH, this can be a profitable investment, but for the 'make a quick buck overnight' folks, it's just NOT going to work out the way they thought it would.

I always tell people, expect at LEAST 4 years put in before you break even. You may get lucky, and make a profit by then, but don't expect to. You have to be in it for the long haul, and there's a lot of work involved. If you don't like hard work, invest in stocks instead.

If you don't take superb care of these animals, they won't make money for you, period. This is why 'snake mills' can't exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcoylesr76

most likely my next comment is going to annoy the OP, oh well, but this to me is a total troll post that has gone on to far.

---

I don't think the OP was trolling at all. He/she(?) has posted a willingness to reconsider based on the responses received, and even posted a separate thread apologizing if anyone was offended, since that was not the intent. We've all made occasionally overstated generalizations when we felt passionately about something, and I believe that was the only proverbial "sin" committed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcoylesr76

most likely my next comment is going to annoy the OP, oh well, but this to me is a total troll post that has gone on to far.

---

I don't think this comment will annoy the OP, but it does annoy me quite a bit. It's obvious the OP did not intend for this tread to be a trolling attempt, but rather an honest concern on his part.

Why, after so much interesting discourse have you decided the OP is a troll :confused:

Win, Lose, or Draw, I think there has been some very useful discussion in this thread. Sorry you found it so bereft of information.