Has desert female breeding got anywhere?

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,
Just thought I'd point out there are several morph genes already known can can result in the animal dying - infertile is far from impossible.
dr del

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Yup, what he said.

I've heard a number of reports of female deserts actually dying while gravid. Not something I'm really anxious to experience first hand.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

Adding genes does not appear to help.

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This to me is one of the worst indicators of failure in them. Hope I'm wrong, I like some of you will still give it a try eventually.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

This to me is one of the worst indicators of failure in them.

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Why would that make any difference...and I'm truly curious to your thoughts, not being combative. Spiders still wobble when combined with other mutations. The thought process behind mutations essentially being "fixed" by entirely separate mutations is baffling to me...but then again, I don't claim to be well versed in genetic mutations or how they work.

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Why would that make any difference...and I'm truly curious to your thoughts, not being combative. Spiders still wobble when combined with other mutations. The thought process behind mutations essentially being "fixed" by entirely separate mutations is baffling to me...but then again, I don't claim to be well versed in genetic mutations or how they work.

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You are correct...you can not fix a morph just because you mix that morph...I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong...
For example...Spider and Sable proven to be fatal...if you were to combine an extreme morph....lets say a Spider Pin Lesser Ghost Pastel to a Sable Mojave Yellow Belly Orange Dream and in that clutch any baby that had the Spider Sable gene in the same baby it would not make it....when those two morphs cross the same path results will be the same no matter how many other morphs are present.
So you can't solve the problem of Desert females throwing infertile eggs just because its crossed into other genes....that gene still plays a roll....
Anyone can correct me if I am wrong...I know I have been wrong before....
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Hi,

There have been some odd anomalies reported at NERD - like a living sable spider and a surviving pearl.

I haven't heard anthing more about them though so I don't know what the long term result was.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

There have been some odd anomalies reported at NERD - like a living sable spider and a surviving pearl.

I haven't heard anthing more about them though so I don't know what the long term result was.

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At least with the Pearl, isn't that thing so neuro that maybe it should not be alive?

as soon as the price of female deserts reflects the lack of 'investment' capability I will probably buy one.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

as soon as the price of female deserts reflects the lack of 'investment' capability I will probably buy one.

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I agree. I would buy one for $200 or so as a pet. Maybe a bit more if it has another gene and looks really cool.

I don't think being able to produce an exception means something is ok.

For example, mules are sterile. Just because you have an anomalous mule that is not sterile doesn't change the fact that sterility is the norm in mules. (Yes, this has happened).

If one person has a desert female that isn't sterile, but the rest all are, that doesn't mean desert females aren't sterile, it just means that person has an anomalous animal.

Look at the evidence: Most of the reports of desert female breeding result in a clutch of slugs, and all TOO often, a female dead of egg binding. The egg binding would indicate that there is something physically amiss with the animal's reproductive system that has nothing to do with temperature or hormones.

Caramel females: Something is obviously wrong with their reproductive system. They have very low fertility. They will lay fertile eggs--every once in a blue moon, they may even lay a clutch that's mostly fertile--but the norm is for them to lay a lot of slugs, and maybe just a few fertile eggs along with them.

I don't understand why people are struggling so hard against the inevitable conclusion. The idea that desert ball pythons become egg bound because they're too warm is relatively mystical thinking--there's no conceivable reason why higher temperatures would cause egg binding, particularly when they cause no other symptoms of overheating in the animal.

I don't see how it could possibly be so, from a physiological perspective. Physical abnormality of the reproductive system due to mutation makes sense--how does 'keep them cooler and they'll lay good eggs' actually make sense? Upon what is it based? What physiological process COULD cause such a thing?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I don't see how it could possibly be so, from a physiological perspective. Physical abnormality of the reproductive system due to mutation makes sense--how does 'keep them cooler and they'll lay good eggs' actually make sense? Upon what is it based? What physiological process COULD cause such a thing?

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The keep them cool thing came from the theory they weren't properly thermoregulating the eggs inside of them and cooking them causing the slugs. I haven't herd of egg binding being normal.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The keep them cool thing came from the theory they weren't properly thermoregulating the eggs inside of them and cooking them causing the slugs. I haven't herd of egg binding being normal.

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I do not know that it is normal, but seems to be more common as more people are trying to breed females.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

as soon as the price of female deserts reflects the lack of 'investment' capability I will probably buy one.

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I won't...I already have "pet" snakes.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I don't see how it could possibly be so, from a physiological perspective. Physical abnormality of the reproductive system due to mutation makes sense--how does 'keep them cooler and they'll lay good eggs' actually make sense? Upon what is it based? What physiological process COULD cause such a thing?

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Dr. Del summed it up perfectly in post #38...there's no real reason behind the thinking, only that there's nothing else we can think of that may be the problem. When worries set in, we'll go to all sorts of lengths to figure out problems, no matter how irrational the train of thought may be. I think when you add in the fact that most people working with ball pythons have a very basic understanding of genetics at best, and and have such varying thoughts as to even the most simple of husbandry techniques/practices, then grasping at straws to figure things out beyond our understanding is the next logical step.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Bob Clark though the same thing with his Leusistic Burmese and she never did reproduce...he chalked it up to the Morph must make it infertile....yet now they produce them....
Same thing was said about Caramel BPs...like I stated to many large breeders are working with them and soon info will be posted on the secret to breeding them. I would be willing to say its a temp thing.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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Bob's leucy was later diagnosed with pseudamonas, which at the time was rampant throughout many burm collections in the US.

The Desert is a really interesting topic. I think there are a number of things keeping the price high based on the information around. First, the snake makes crazy combos. If the Desert made ugly or poor combos, we wouldn't even be talking about it anymore. Second there has been some serious money invested in the Desert. It is hard to let something go when you have money invested. Also based on the past not all information is shared on a morph. So because of the first two people are skeptical that what they hear may or may not be true. Everyone wants the Desert to produce.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

Adding genes does not appear to help.

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I am not so sure about adding genes. I have produced a number of Desert and Desert combos including a 4 gene combo female. When I look at the Desert is seem to be a skinny snake. My Tiger breeder looks like he is heading down hill at any moment. He sporadically eats but breeds like crazy. All my 2011 productions eats extremely well. I feed once a week and they eat each time with only the occasional skip. But they all still look on the under fed side. Almost triangular in shape. They don't seem to have the shape or pack on the weight like a normal ball python. But the 4 gene combo looks like a normal ball python. I am not saying she will produce or even lay eggs but just my observations.

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/a...vt/deserts.jpg

I am not holding my breath. They make great combos and I want to make more. Just wanted to add my person experience with the Desert. The female will not be an 18 month breeder. She will be a 3 year girl for sure.

Great post, Marshall! Hope that quad girl produces for you :gj:!!!

Sorry for the side track but Bob Clark's leucistic burm was a great motivator for me when I first got into serious snake keeping (way back when you sent a self-addressed stamped envelope to get a price list and considered yourself very lucky to get an actual photo along with the list). Anyway, Brandon, do you think the leucistic burms now are the same thing (i.e. will they look that clean white at that size)? That one of Bob's never bred, right? I read once there was another one (maybe Indian python) back in the 50’s. Who ever thought the US would lead the way in banning …

Yes, Bobs Burmese never bred before it died...he tried everything...even artificial simulation...
Randy I hear you...I held that snake...I have a polaroid pic...(yes dating myself)...holding that snake..I still have a laminated autographed pic of the leusistic burm hanging on my incubator that I have held onto for over 20 years..
I use to work for Wes Harris in OKC at his pet store when he had it, him and Bob are still good friends to this day and my first three Burms were bought from Bob...I hand picked them out of the egg...one 100% het female and 1.1 Albinos back when the cost a lot more than today.
Serious motivation back then seeing Bobs facility I just should have stuck with it instead of taking a 15 year break...ohh where I would be now ...lol
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I wish I knew how close the caramel females are to infertile. I've got a chance to produce my first caramel this year. If I hatch a female that is very very unlikely to produce any good eggs I'll probably quietly look for someone to give her to as a pet rather than advertise her at a super low price ticking off other breeders who might think they should be more. Maybe the lack of for sale desert females is due to a similar reluctance to advertise them at what they might be valued at now.

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Randy -- I know it's not all that scientific, but I did a rough tally a year or so ago based on data scrounged from the Internet that suggests a 2:1 slug:egg ratio for caramel females.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1572476

It's enough to keep me from wanting to spend $100's on a caramel female, that's for sure, or even from really wanting a female as a cornerstone for a project. However, it wouldn't be enough to keep me from breeding a caramel female if I did encounter a really nice looking one from a good bloodline at a good price (or produce a nice holdback from a caramel x het breeding).

I haven't found a single viable report of fertile eggs from a desert female, however ... What concerns me even more about the deserts is, as has already been mentioned, the number of reports of desert females dying or requiring surgery secondary to pregnancy.

I love the deserts, and moreover, there are desert combos out there (enchi desert lesser, etc.) that absolutely blow me away. The prospect of infertile or subfertile females also doesn't really scare me. What does scare me is the idea that the females I produce may potentially die if bred. It's great to place animals in pet homes, but for an animal with the potential for a 40+ year lifespan, it would be easy enough for her to change hands a few times and wind up with an uninformed owner.

So for me to make an informed decision on starting a desert project, I would want to know not whether or not the females are fertile (to me it looks as though they are not, and I would only ever consider buying a male), but whether or not any attempt to breed a desert female is likely to be fatal to her. If it is highly likely to be fatal, then I would feel very uncertain about producing this morph due to the future welfare of my desert females.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Why would that make any difference...and I'm truly curious to your thoughts, not being combative. Spiders still wobble when combined with other mutations. The thought process behind mutations essentially being "fixed" by entirely separate mutations is baffling to me...but then again, I don't claim to be well versed in genetic mutations or how they work.

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I was told by a big breeder recently that one of the main problems with the desert gene is them feeding consistently. My thoughts are simple, you mix Spiders into deserts and maybe just maybe you get an animal that feed's and breed's better. In my opinion Spiders are the best feeding and breeding ball pythons hands down, I'm thinking maybe just maybe they can offset some of the desert's weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

I was told by a big breeder recently that one of the main problems with the desert gene is them feeding consistently. My thoughts are simple, you mix Spiders into deserts and maybe just maybe you get an animal that feed's and breed's better. In my opinion Spiders are the best feeding and breeding ball pythons hands down, I'm thinking maybe just maybe they can offset some of the desert's weaknesses.

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I wondered the same thing about the sub-saharan giants. ;)

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Originally Posted by dr del

I wondered the same thing about the sub-saharan giants. ;)

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I'm in full agreement with you on this idea also.:gj:

Last year pro exotics posted their theory of lower temps during ovulation hopefully someone is testing that theory since they can't. i guess bush league breeders will start up the yearly debate again and we can find out this years results from the larger breeders

Well its time for me to eat crow...anyone have any salt...
He did the cooler temp idea with an 08 female over 2000g and got the same results as everyone else....all slugs
I feel for his loss and for the Reptile Community as a whole. For all you that said lower temps wont help and I argued with you I apologize. You were right and I was wrong.
John my sympathy goes out to you.
I read the post on the BLBC.
Travis
Lair of Dragons:tears:

Despite my naysaying attitude on this subject, I am sorry it didn't work out. Deserts are such beautiful BPs, and only being able to get combos from the males is unfortunate :(

Sorry travis, i was hoping someone would be able to crack the desert problem:mad:. There are so many amazing combos with the desert.
I hope someone can get some eggs from them:confused:
Tom

I think the resolution to the problem is just going to have to be breeding male deserts to make your combos, and the female offspring will be amazing show pieces in there own right. Its not the best solution but it keeps the morph going. The combos are endless just will take someone a little more patience to get it right since the desert gene can only be carried in the male. The light at the end of the tunnel is still there just not what everyone wanted it to be.

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Originally Posted by Ga_herps

I think the resolution to the problem is just going to have to be breeding male deserts to make your combos, and the female offspring will be amazing show pieces in there own right. Its not the best solution but it keeps the morph going. The combos are endless just will take someone a little more patience to get it right since the desert gene can only be carried in the male. The light at the end of the tunnel is still there just not what everyone wanted it to be.

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Kind of the reptile equivalent of the paper weight...purty but kinda useless...:D

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Originally Posted by sho220

Kind of the reptile equivalent of the paper weight...purty but kinda useless...:D

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Really? Does a ball python HAVE to breed and reproduce in order to have value? Or does every loved pet ball python (including my own, as I am no breeder) have no more value than a paper weight?

Interesting...

So will we see the price of desert females drop dramatically, and males rise? :confused:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Kind of the reptile equivalent of the paper weight...purty but kinda useless...:D

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Well, if that is the case, then you can call me a paper weight collector since I have a rack full of males with no intentions of breeding them ;)

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Originally Posted by JLC

Really? Does a ball python HAVE to breed and reproduce in order to have value? Or does every loved pet ball python (including my own, as I am no breeder) have no more value than a paper weight?

Interesting...

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Only needs to be able to breed to justify the $1000 price tag. I'll still buy a female desert for the right price.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Only needs to be able to breed to justify the $1000 price tag. I'll still buy a female desert for the right price.

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:confuzd: I spent $1000 for my doberman...and another couple hundred to get her spayed so she couldn't/wouldn't breed.

That's not to say that I don't understand MOST people's reluctance to spend a grand on a snake just because it's pretty. But my point was to question the statement that the animals have NO value for no other reason than that they can't breed.

I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.

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At the risk of taking this thread in a very strange direction, my snakes help me deal with my PTSD, and allow me to relax when things get stressful for me and I want to go off the deep end.

I can't put a price tag or value on how much that is worth to me.

Ok, weird rant off, back to your regular programing ;)

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Originally Posted by JLC

I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.

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Indeed :weirdface. However I wouldn't think badly of some of the people who probably surprised you in a negative way lol, a lot of people these days are more interested in the business aspect of ball pythons. They want to INVEST in ball pythons and ball python morphs. Of course a morph that can't produce would be useless to them.

I don't think deserts themselves should be worth 1k because they're not that cool looking. I would have gotten a bumblebee for $800 (that's how much they were when I joined) and I had no intention of breeding lol. I think bee's are freakn HOT. Even to this day, if you see a sweet bee, you gotta have it :gj:!! It's a beautiful snake even if it's just a pet.

I think people will freak out, and prices will drop....hopefully, the male prices will stabilize once people come to their senses. This makes Desert a more rare and precious morph than any of the others, because only males will breed. This means the number of breedable deserts will always be low. Regardless of the combination, 1/4 of the clutch will be sold as 'pet only' animals. Combinations with multiple recessives may take longer to produce. I don't think that having 1/4 of the clutch sell for the price of normals (which is what I see EVENTUALLY happening) is too much of a price to pay to work with this gene.

However, I do sincerely hope that people WILL stop trying to breed the females, soon. They not only slug out, they're heavily prone to egg binding, and they are dying in droves due to these attempts. I think the females should be sold with a non-breeding agreement, the way female pet-quality purebred dogs are. The females should be discouraged from going into a breeding cycle, as it could be a risk to their lives.

Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g. :tears:
Travis

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g. :tears:
Travis

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That's just heartbreaking :tears: Were any of the eggs fertile?

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Originally Posted by bad-one

That's just heartbreaking :tears: Were any of the eggs fertile?

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No. :(

Very sad news, indeed.

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Originally Posted by bad-one

That's just heartbreaking :tears: Were any of the eggs fertile?

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No...none...he cut them in the pictures...they were yellow...he has a Tiger female bred from the same Desert male that is due any day...he had them at cooler temps for a long time thinking it would solve the problem..same thinking I HAD...
I just can't grasp the fact that Mother Nature would make such a nice looking morph that is not venomous and that the males can breed and reproduce and the females throw slugs and some end up dying for the attempt.
Travis

That really is sad news. I agree with Donna's earlier post. Maybe it's time we stop trying to breed these Desert girls, and just enjoy them as pets.

In the wild the line probably would have eventually died out due to the lower production from only the males. Just luck that someone found/hatched it into captivity where the selection pressure is different.

I really haven't been keeping up with all the morphs now days. There is another thread here where someone was picking from two higher end morph/combo females and it occurred to me that I have no idea if either is proven to reproduce. At this point I would assume any new morph could have reproductive issues in one or both sexes until proven otherwise.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Really? Does a ball python HAVE to breed and reproduce in order to have value? Or does every loved pet ball python (including my own, as I am no breeder) have no more value than a paper weight?

Interesting...

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Lighten up Francis...it was a joke...

I do not think they will sell as low as a normal, but I could see them in the $100-200 range for a female.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g. :tears:
Travis

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Man that's salt on the wounds :(... My sincere condolences to John.. I don't know him, but I know losing a pet is painful...

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Originally Posted by JLC

:confuzd: I spent $1000 for my doberman...and another couple hundred to get her spayed so she couldn't/wouldn't breed.

That's not to say that I don't understand MOST people's reluctance to spend a grand on a snake just because it's pretty. But my point was to question the statement that the animals have NO value for no other reason than that they can't breed.

I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.

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Sure, I did the same with my $500 German Shorthair. Sometimes I regret it and wish he could breed, because he's so sweet, and I feel strongly that most dog breeds would benefit from breeding for sweetness. But the world is already full of sweet dogs looking for homes...

Did I buy my first piebald FOR her breeding value? Nah, I bought her because I was over the moon about ball pythons, and pieds especially. And I thought she was gorgeous. But I was only willing to pay as much as I did because I knew there was a pretty good chance I could get some of it back eventually.

And I can definitely only justify having MULTIPLE pieds because I want to do projects with them.

So, no, I don't think my snakes' value is solely in their ability to breed? But I really DO want to make pied combos. So do lots of other people. I'd argue that the ability to produce similarly cool offspring adds to my ball pythons' value in a very real way.

My ancestors have been farming for thousands of years. It's in my blood. I started breeding hamsters in the 3rd grade, lol. I understand the concept of pet only but I see a nice looking animal and I want to make more/better.

I hope no one got the impression from my statement that I have anything against breeding, or even valuing animals based on their breeding potential. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was just put off by the back-handed, casual implication that because they couldn't breed they had NO value.

no one ever revered to no value but each person has their threshold for return on investment.

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Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g. :tears:
Travis

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That's a HORRIBLE shame, I'm very sorry to hear that she didn't make it. :( Clearly, something is wrong with the structure of these animals' reproductive tract, or they wouldn't be dying the way they are.

We must always remember that a color or pattern morph is a mutation, and most mutations in nature are detrimental. Only rarely are they beneficial, or neutral. Desert is due to a single mutated gene, and that gene must also control something that is involved with the female reproductive system. (Or, even more likely, the Desert appearance is a side-effect of whatever this gene is actually affecting).

Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?