Why feed live prey?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slim

The first rule of Flick Club is we don't talk about Flick Club.

---

Actually made me lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

I'm seeing a ton of responses here about one reason why you feed live that I'm just not buying. People are saying their snake WON'T eat a F/T. In my loosely founded opinion, if the animal gets hungry enough it will eat a carcass before death. Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, which means if they're starving and come across a dead animal, they will eat it. They're also pretty simple creatures that seem to acclimate to various methods of husbandry pretty well, meaning once they start eating F/T they will continue to.


So here's my real input to the thread in the form of a question:

Can anyone cite a single specific instance of a BP dying of starvation or becoming fully emaciated (not just dropping some weight, DEATHLY thin) due to a hard switch from live to F/T? Did the animal have other issues? Did it take live on the first attempt (for emaciated)? It would probably be hard to identify since it would take serious balls to speak of it on the forum for fear of flaming, but if I were a betting man I'd say that you could probably force any BP to switch to F/T if you really, truly forced it.

Does that mean every snake will warm up to it completely? I'm not going to speculate on that as I have no foundation. Getting them to breeding weight with that strategy or simply keeping them at a healthy weight may be difficult. I'm really confident that the snake wouldn't allow itself to die over eating something that it can definitely identify as palatable.

Just playing devil's advocate here...

---

Have you ever been to Petco? I see severely sickly snakes there on a regular basis because they won't eat f/t (seemingly close to death sometimes), and they refuse to feed live. It may not be impossible to switch some to f/t, however sometimes it's really not worth the added stress to the owner or the snake to try and force it. If I've tried multiple colors of different feeders, and multiple ways of thawing and heating and it's still refused for weeks...sometimes months, I offer live. I only have 3 on live right now, and it's just not worth the hassle for me or my snakes to try and force f/t down their throats, metaphorically and physically. I attempt f/t with them occasionally, and maybe one day they'll take it.

I would willingly feed live if I had a snake refusing for long periods of time, or if I ever decided to breed my own rodents. I don't have a problem with live feeding at all though I do fear the consequences of negligence at feeding time.

I feed F/T because it's convenient, inexpensive, and most accessible to me. It also helps that my snakes are good eaters. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LGray23

Have you ever been to Petco? I see severely sickly snakes there on a regular basis because they won't eat f/t (seemingly close to death sometimes), and they refuse to feed live.

---

That's so weird. When I got my first snake from Petco (yeah yeah I know), they told me he would only take LIVE MICE and they had tried "everything." He took an f/t RAT three days later with no hesitation. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rebelrachel13

That's so weird. When I got my first snake from Petco (yeah yeah I know), they told me he would only take LIVE MICE and they had tried "everything." He took an f/t RAT three days later with no hesitation. :P

---

All the Petco's/Petsmarts in my area will not feed live. lol I'm surprised they did!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LGray23

All the Petco's/Petsmarts in my area will not feed live. lol I'm surprised they did!

---

My guess is they were lying and had not fed it anything

I dont really have a choice. Pretzel is quite happy to eat f/t, she always eats just fine. I live with my Grandparents who said the only way they'd let her in the house was if her food was frozen, and away from our food, anything live wouldn't make it past the front door. Or the back door as I cleverly pointed out. Also as far as I am aware, live feeding is illegal in the UK? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

I'm seeing a ton of responses here about one reason why you feed live that I'm just not buying. People are saying their snake WON'T eat a F/T. In my loosely founded opinion, if the animal gets hungry enough it will eat a carcass before death. Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, which means if they're starving and come across a dead animal, they will eat it. They're also pretty simple creatures that seem to acclimate to various methods of husbandry pretty well, meaning once they start eating F/T they will continue to.


So here's my real input to the thread in the form of a question:

Can anyone cite a single specific instance of a BP dying of starvation or becoming fully emaciated (not just dropping some weight, DEATHLY thin) due to a hard switch from live to F/T? Did the animal have other issues? Did it take live on the first attempt (for emaciated)? It would probably be hard to identify since it would take serious balls to speak of it on the forum for fear of flaming, but if I were a betting man I'd say that you could probably force any BP to switch to F/T if you really, truly forced it.

Does that mean every snake will warm up to it completely? I'm not going to speculate on that as I have no foundation. Getting them to breeding weight with that strategy or simply keeping them at a healthy weight may be difficult. I'm really confident that the snake wouldn't allow itself to die over eating something that it can definitely identify as palatable.

Just playing devil's advocate here...

---

Not saying that it won't happen. But most of us don't have the time to do that. I want my snakes to eat every week if they want to. I'd rather them not need a forced fast to get them on FT.

OP is asking for reasons; I had a problem with people saying it's the snake that WON'T or CAN'T switch. For me, I'm uncomfortable enough feeding live that I WOULD probably force a fast if I ever got a snake that didn't switch to F/T readily. Feel free to make the case that I shouldn't own BPs if that's how I feel. I won't put up a fight with you but I would disagree.

I think the example with the Petco snakes has a lot of other variables that are unfair to my point, like their general poor husbandry. I got my female from Petco and she was very thin but not deathly. They told me at the store that all of them had taken F/T at least once because they would not feed live under any circumstance, but some weren't eating regularly. I'd attribute that more to the stress of living at petco, but it's too hard to isolate the F/T variable or Petco stress variable in that example.


Mason - That's a much better way of putting it :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyle7676

LOL yet you still fail to provide an example of how f/t is risky when the owner is careful. There is no risk.

---

1) Parasite transfer - internal parasite eggs have the ability to lie dormant throughout the freezing process until the appropriate conditions arise. (can happen w/ live too)
2) Salmonella
3) Anything that can go wrong w/ people frozen food can happen w/ frozen rats, but worse since they still have their bacteria filled gut content and feces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

I'm seeing a ton of responses here about one reason why you feed live that I'm just not buying. People are saying their snake WON'T eat a F/T. In my loosely founded opinion, if the animal gets hungry enough it will eat a carcass before death. Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, which means if they're starving and come across a dead animal, they will eat it. They're also pretty simple creatures that seem to acclimate to various methods of husbandry pretty well, meaning once they start eating F/T they will continue to.


So here's my real input to the thread in the form of a question:

Can anyone cite a single specific instance of a BP dying of starvation or becoming fully emaciated (not just dropping some weight, DEATHLY thin) due to a hard switch from live to F/T? Did the animal have other issues? Did it take live on the first attempt (for emaciated)? It would probably be hard to identify since it would take serious balls to speak of it on the forum for fear of flaming, but if I were a betting man I'd say that you could probably force any BP to switch to F/T if you really, truly forced it.

Does that mean every snake will warm up to it completely? I'm not going to speculate on that as I have no foundation.

Just playing devil's advocate here...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

OP is asking for reasons; I had a problem with people saying it's the snake that WON'T or CAN'T switch. For me, I'm uncomfortable enough feeding live that I WOULD probably force a fast if I ever got a snake that didn't switch to F/T readily. Feel free to make the case that I shouldn't own BPs if that's how I feel. I won't put up a fight with you but I would disagree.

---

I'm sure there are many balls out there that have died due to starving to death because it wouldn't switch over. I don't have any sources, but I doubt someone is going to come out and say, "Hey! My ball starved to death because I wouldn't feed it anything but f/t!". Those type of people probably wouldn't join a forum like this anyway.

I think you underestimate the will of an animal. If they don't like something, some will most likely keep disliking it. Take ferrets for example. Many tend to imprint on a certain food (Luckily mine didn't). I have seen a significant number of ferrets starve themselves to the point of emaciation and illness due to food preference. Once they were provided with a food they liked, they ate no problem. Many types of parrots are like this too, which is why it is difficult to medicate or introduce new foods to them. I know a ferret or a parrot is not a snake, but the point was that even hungry animals still have a preference and will be picky.


Ball pythons are known to be picky eaters. It's already tough enough to get some to eat regularly at times. I for one am glad that my snakes take food fine.

But because they are known picky eaters, its also why some balls are addicted to ASFs and wouldn't take normal rats(live or f/t).

As a keeper, it is our responsibility to provide the best for our animals. What's best for the keeper isn't always best for the animal. I for one like to keep my snakes well fed. It would be selfish to induce a fast if an owner did not like feeding live and the animal failed to switch. At that point, it would be better just to exchange the snake for one more willing to take f/t.


(There are many snakes in pet stores that starve to death, but I agree with you that it has more to do w/ the husbandry than actual food preference)

Just my $.02

This is really interesting :) I'm quite lucky really, Pretzel is my only Ball Python and she's never really had a massive problem with eating. I feed her F/T, but as far as I am aware (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong!) feeding live is actually illegal in the UK, so don't have much of a choice.

Also I live with my grandparents, and it was ultimately down to them whether or not I could keep Pretzel here. One of their rules was only if her food is frozen. If it came down to it and I had to feed live, I could do it, but at the moment as it is I have no other choice but f/t.

::: I'm not saying I'm completely oblivious to the fact that there are some people in the UK that will live feed :) Just that f/t is all Pretzel knows, she's fine with it, and also (knowing my luck) I'd get caught if I did try it!

Satomi- I agree and would exchange or trade my snake before any health issues arose while switching or any risky weight loss happened. I was lucky enough to get 2 snakes that had no issues.

Ferrets are great. I was curious what the different 'morphs' you listed in your signature were and google imaged "Sable ferret" ... somehow this popped up?

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...2052010175.jpg

I started feeding live ASFs because they are readily available and it's convenient because I work third shift. I feed on my night off. I feed the smaller ones first, if one doesn't eat it goes to the next in line. My big female eats four but leftovers go back in the tank for next week. Which is very convenient. Soft furs stink much less than normal rats and a live soft fur is the best way to get a stubborn ball python to eat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

Satomi- I agree and would exchange or trade my snake before any health issues arose while switching or any risky weight loss happened. I was lucky enough to get 2 snakes that had no issues.

Ferrets are great. I was curious what the different 'morphs' you listed in your signature were and google imaged "Sable ferret" ... somehow this popped up?

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...2052010175.jpg

---

Lolol.
Well......the ferret pictured is indeed a sable. >_<
Sable is the wildtype coloring and pattern. If you look at their wild ancestors, the European Polecat, they will look identical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by evan385

I started feeding live ASFs because they are readily available and it's convenient because I work third shift. I feed on my night off. I feed the smaller ones first, if one doesn't eat it goes to the next in line. My big female eats four but leftovers go back in the tank for next week. Which is very convenient. Soft furs stink much less than normal rats and a live soft fur is the best way to get a stubborn ball python to eat.

---

I want to try asfs, but sadly its $25/rat where I'm from. Plus they're illegal in my state, so its a little difficult to find other sources.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

I was very adamant about feeding only F/T for a very long time. As my collection grew, my attitude quickly changed. Once I started breeding my own feeders it became much more convenient to feed live. No more worries about keeping track of which snakes only take live and which ones will take F/T. No more thawing dozens of rodents out on feeding day. My snakes seem to fast much less as well. Pros vs Cons for me swing my decision to feeding live.

Do I have snakes with bite scars? Yes, I have 3 actually. Do I feel bad about it? Yes, I do:(. Will I discontinue feeding live? No. I've never had a snake have a serious injury and hopefully I never will. But, as far as how I feed and how others feed, I've always felt "I'll take care of my animals how I want, and you take care of yours how you want"

[QUOTE=satomi325;1784610
I want to try asfs, but sadly its $25/rat where I'm from. Plus they're illegal in my state, so its a little difficult to find other sources.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Soft furs are $3 here. You need a license sell them but it's legal to breed for personal use and sell extras to the licensed breeder you bought them from.

I wanted to add that the horror stories you hear are usually from people who walked away while feeding live, even for a minute. The whole point of observing is to make sure nothing happens and be prepared to pull a rat if you have to. Most serious injuries could have been avoided.