worst bug eyes i've ever seen

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Originally Posted by jinx667

Unless it is a gene that only expresses when paired with the Lesser/Butter genes?

I believe there is an issue with this in Lucy Rat snakes as well?

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Yes, lucy rat snakes have been coming up bug-eyed for years ... I seem to recall seeing some lucy Burms for sale, too, significantly discounted, with eye issues.

I believe there is some link in snakes between eye development and leucism, but I'm not sure exactly what.

I've seen a number of homozygous lessers with bug-eyes. I bred lesser x mojo last year specifically to try and avoid the bug-eyed trait. I got 4 BELs, all of whom were healthy and had normal-sized eyes. However, one of my holdbacks has a crossed-eye, which didn't develop until she was ~200 grams. You can kind of appreciate it in this picture -- her left eye (on your right) is canted forward permanently.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...vana/Mary2.jpg


I feel as though in the photos I've seen of all-white lesser pieds, their eyes appear smaller than normal.

I believe that all of these issues are likely no more than aesthetic. I did and will probably continue to avoid lesser x lesser breedings to avoid the bug-eyes, because it is an aesthetic issue and I find it aesthetically displeasing! (Read: I think they look silly!) I wasn't thrilled that my one BEL developed a crossed-eye, and I did debate whether I'll still breed her in the future or keep her purely as a pet. However, she exhibits two other traits that are crucial to me (great personality and excellent appetite -- she's the biggest of my holdbacks), so given that I do believe the problem is intrinsic to BELs, she'll likely go on to reproduce in the future. If a significant proportion of her babies have eye problems, then that'll be the end of that line.

Ok but it can't be just in bells cause like I said my pastel female has the big eyes inless I guess it's possible she came from a clutch with lesser and pastel but I am not sure what her background is

I hatched out a pastel last year that had severely undersized eyes. She was from pastel x spider pairing...
http://img.tapatalk.com/c775b63e-4b5a-9f41.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/c775b63e-4bb4-e2fb.jpg
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For the undersized eyes, is the it size of the eye or the size of the scales around the eyes? I remember someone advertising a Puma that had large eye scales and made the eyes look small.

These were taken in Daytona in 2005.
This one isn't as bad as the other that was there, but also had some pretty small eyes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ictures269.jpg

Paradox Hypo Super Mojave with tiny eyes...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ictures270.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ictures463.jpg

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

So butter x mojo should be ok?

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there isnt a known problem if you breed a lesser or a butter to a mojave. mojave to mojave isn't known to cause this problem either. go ahead and breed your butter to your mojave. had a lesser x mojave clutch last year and hit on 2 bel's. normal sizes eyes.

this came up as a topic a few years ago and don't quote me on this but I believe it was kevin who said that they will grow into their eyes.
The member on here who has a pastel with bug eyes. this might not be related to the lesser/butter problem. you don't see too many pastels with bug eyes, but seen many lucys with it.

more bug eyes

I've got a plain old mojave with buggy eyes. We call her the Marty Feldman snake. She was just around 700gms when that pic was taken.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps2e13001b.jpg

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Originally Posted by Redneck_Crow

I've got a plain old mojave with buggy eyes. We call her the Marty Feldman snake. She was just around 700gms when that pic was taken.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps2e13001b.jpg

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Can you get a closer picture of her eyes? They don't look like bug eyes in the picture.

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I've seen super lessers and I have yet to see bug eyes on an adult... My guess is that they grow into them

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Good questions.

I would imagine that the bug eyes only occur when the gene is doubled, which is why butterxbutter/lesserxlesser/lesserxbutter's have such a significant turn out... I'm not sure on the percentages, but no body really hears about mojavexmojave getting bug eyes.

I wonder if there are functional issues with the bug eyes as well.
I imagine that the ones up for sale are eating alight, so maybe it's just cosmetic? Either way, ball's don't really need eyesight to survive in captivity. Ben Siegel has an eyeless ball that eats and lives perfectly fine.

That's just my 2cents and opinion.

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You're absolutely correct! I have a hatchling super lesser, and he functions just fine

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Can you get a closer picture of her eyes? They don't look like bug eyes in the picture.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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I'll try to get one later on, my camera batteries are in the charger.

Her eyes aren't so buggy as they are big for a snake her size. I'll try to get a pic from the top, they do stick out a little more than the rest of my snakes, but not freakishly so.

Despite what many people try to say.... There is a ton of line breeding and inbreeding in our industry. It's prevalent in all of the reptile industry. All morphs are genetic flaws. They are all genetic defects. Unwanted physical abnormalities are bound to show up. Some of these defects are probably heightened in particular morphs due to the genes involved in making them what they are. Some can probably be linked as is the Spider and it's wobble.
Albinism has vision issues linked to it so one can fathom that Leucism (which is linked to Albinism) could or would also have eye/vision problems associated with the defect. It does show up in rats as well as balls.
Look at RTB's, you could not breed Albino x Albino back in the day. You would get snakes with one eye, no eyes, stillborn, weak babies and more. I think over the years this has become less prevalent due to the massive outcrossing’s that started to happen due to these unwanted defects. I think most breeders still will not breed white to white.
It's rather common that you see a breeder selling pairs of ball pythons to people. They are for the majority siblings. Now this person that buys them grows them up and guess what? The breed them together. The babies are then sold and often times are sold in pairs. The cycle keeps going. Not all breeders do this, but allot do.