Do you feed in tank?

I recently started feeding in her tank because she was being a picky snake and for some reason stopped taking feeders in her separate feeding box. I think it may have something to do with burst past mice, so I'll try a new box next feeding...but as far as feeding in the tank goes, she took readily three times already. Plus, eating in the hot spot lamp seemed to make her eat the meal faster, for some reason. She just gulped it down instead of taking her time...weird, but anyways...familiar environment is best environment.

Sure do.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Duh - not only do they have special feeding boxes with placemats, but they have hot spots of exactly 92 degrees and cools side hides of no less than 78 degrees with humidity of 60% - all in the wilds of Africa.

It's very exact and there are no deviations. Also, the animals they eat all get colonics and wheat grass enemas prior to be digested so that no plant matter, seeds, nuts, etc. can dare impact the delicate digestive systems of the wild ball pythons.

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Haha rotfl! Yes skip they do. Darn it I knew I was doing something wrong! I bet someone places those little ratties on plates, lights candles, and cuts them into teeny weeny little edible peices too. Jeeze our poor little cb babies don't get that. I must bring them back to natures way!


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Yup. I used to believe in the feeding in seperate container myth, but I now feed all my snakes in their tubs or tanks. I handle them just as frequently as I used to, and they are not at all more agressive. :gj:

yes I have always fed my bp in tank and she has never had any aggresion she loves cuddling (well I think she does, because Im warm) when I read and never has any issues with eating either.

I don't disagree that the risk of your animal getting impacted is probably wildly low, but just to play devil's advocate:

Isn't the goal with a captive bred, domestic pet to provide conditions that are more ideal and less risky than their natural setting? I don't think you would go out of your way to distress your pet just to let it get a little 'taste of the wild,' so why skip over a simple precaution to remove yet another variable? Isn't the goal of proper husbandry to remove as many of those natural variables as possible?

Again, I don't disagree that the risk is probably stupidly small, but is it safe to merely write it off under THAT rationale? Especially with new keepers like myself watching closely and learning from the comments of veteran members? Even merely saying 'the risk is there, but I've had a billion snakes and none have been impacted so I have no problem rolling the dice' is better than pulling the 'it happens in nature' card. Even weighing the stress of the snake over the reward would provide something a bit more tangible as a reasonable rationale. Just saying.

Side note: while there are very few animals that can 'digest' wood besides insects, it should be noted that carrying the ability to break down matter is not quite the same as 'digesting' it. This is speculation, but I'm sure 9/10 times you wouldn't even know if your snake swallowed a piece of wood. The 10th time could potentially suck, though...

I used to feed Lily in a seprate tank, but then I got a pair of sand boas. She's still digesting her first meal she's had in her tank, but she has never refused a meal since I got her in October.

I've always fed in tub. Balls seem picky enough without stressing them right before. I'm fairly positive our pin wouldn't eat if we moved her first, especially F/T, which she's sort of eh about. We DO move our corn to different enclosure to feed but he has a STRONG feeding response. Everyone eats pretty regularly and we've never been bitten.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I don't disagree that the risk of your animal getting impacted is probably wildly low, but just to play devil's advocate:

Isn't the goal with a captive bred, domestic pet to provide conditions that are more ideal and less risky than their natural setting? I don't think you would go out of your way to distress your pet just to let it get a little 'taste of the wild,' so why skip over a simple precaution to remove yet another variable? Isn't the goal of proper husbandry to remove as many of those natural variables as possible?

Again, I don't disagree that the risk is probably stupidly small, but is it safe to merely write it off under THAT rationale? Especially with new keepers like myself watching closely and learning from the comments of veteran members? Even merely saying 'the risk is there, but I've had a billion snakes and none have been impacted so I have no problem rolling the dice' is better than pulling the 'it happens in nature' card. Even weighing the stress of the snake over the reward would provide something a bit more tangible as a reasonable rationale. Just saying.

Side note: while there are very few animals that can 'digest' wood besides insects, it should be noted that carrying the ability to break down matter is not quite the same as 'digesting' it. This is speculation, but I'm sure 9/10 times you wouldn't even know if your snake swallowed a piece of wood. The 10th time could potentially suck, though...

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The risk of impaction is so low, most vets will tell you they never see a substrate induced impaction in their careers.

It's not a 1 in 10 chance, or a 1 in a 100 chance or even a 1 in 10,000 chance. It is so small it is not even measurable. I have been keeping snakes for three decades. At this point I have only 32 snakes in my collection. For 30+ years I have been feeding multiple snakes, sometime multiple prey items per feeding, all on wood substrate without an issue ever. If I take the number I have now and ASSume I am only feeding once per week and multiply that out by 30 years, that is 49,920 feedings without one problem. If you then figure that most of my snakes eat 2 or 3 prey items a week, and at some point in my life I've had in excess of 60 animals, that is in excess of 150,000 prey items fed, with the snakes ingesting wood substrate - all without an issue.

You run an infinitely greater risk of causing a stress induced regurge or throwing a picky eater off of feed by doing something as pointless as messing with the animal immediately before and after feeding it.

If the idea is to provide a superior environment, why advocate or practice a husbandry tactic that induces stress during feeding?

When the most common issue we see with ball python owners is that their snakes refuse to feed, why in heck would anyone advocate practicing something that would make the problem worse?

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Isn't the goal with a captive bred, domestic pet to provide conditions that are more ideal and less risky than their natural setting?

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Skiploder pretty much nailed it. And I would like to point out that balls are not domesticated. Tame yes, domestic, no. But I do agree that as owners, we should provide ideal, less risky conditions. That said, I don't think wood substrate adds to that risk. Of course there are exceptions, but in general, I don't think it's bad.

I'm glad to see all the responses... So far my research had stated that removing to feed was best because it gave the snake a positive handling experience (associating handling with food) but I'm totally willing to take the advice of owners over a canned article. Leaving in the tank to feed makes more sense to me.

I never feed in my tank, The blood that sometimes is stuck to the frozen mouse can come off and into the tank, and some of the "juices" come out of the mice, i dont need to clean my tank after every feeding.

I feed in my tank, and have never been bitten by my ball. When I hear things like "cage aggression" it kind of annoys me, because if you really think about it there are 2 ways to feed your snake:

1. In cage (develop "cage aggression" by classical conditioning/associating cage movement with food.)

2. Out of cage (Now if we apply the same thought process here that we do to in cage feeding then we have to conclude that your snake is now being conditioned to associate handling with being fed.)

So if we apply this equally your snake will either bite you when you get in its cage or bite you when being handled because of how it's being fed. This is not the case for virtually everyone, the whole concept is chopped liver.

Both sound silly when you put it in that context because that's such a catch-22. One feeding a week or every 10-14 days is not enough to condition your snake to associate anything with feeding except maybe its hunger. I'm thoroughly convinced that it seriously doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by hurricaNe

I never feed in my tank, The blood that sometimes is stuck to the frozen mouse can come off and into the tank, and some of the "juices" come out of the mice, i dont need to clean my tank after every feeding.

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I feed one live and the rest p/k. So I don't have to worry about any of that. We started out with f/t, but what a pain in the butt, plus takes up room in your freezer, if you have a few snakes. Much easier to hit the feed supplier once every week or two. BTW, when we did frozen there was never blood on any of them?

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Originally Posted by Sunbreeze327

I'm glad to see all the responses... So far my research had stated that removing to feed was best because it gave the snake a positive handling experience (associating handling with food) but I'm totally willing to take the advice of owners over a canned article. Leaving in the tank to feed makes more sense to me.

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You are pretty safe with bps in tank. I am not sure about the bigger ones like burms, I don't think you could transfer them to a "feed tank" if you wanted. But now sure how cage aggression is with other breeds. Never seen it in a bp tho.

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

On the other hand, incredibly aggressive feeders (my boas :D) don't care where they are or where they usually eat, if they smell food they're going to go nuts. Good luck trying to pick up a boa that smells food.

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You got that right...:gj:

I'm actually thinking about putting handles on the doors of my PVC cages so that I can open and close them with the hook during feeding. Especially after the other night when the Maddy struck as soon as I opened the door and got me on the stomach. I didn't even have a chance to get the rat into the cage. Fortunately I was wearing a sweatshirt.

The logic that feeding in their enclosure makes a snake more likely to bite you because it expects food in its enclosure is bs on the basis that wouldn't a snake that was fed in a separate bin begin to expect food when it comes OUT of the enclosure (which would be alot worse)?

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Originally Posted by SkYyame

The logic that feeding in their enclosure makes a snake more likely to bite you because it expects food in its enclosure is bs on the basis that wouldn't a snake that was fed in a separate bin begin to expect food when it comes OUT of the enclosure (which would be alot worse)?

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Exactly. This is always my response.

Two of my snakes I feed out of the enclosure.
One I feed in it cause thats the only way he'll eat it.
And two I feed in separate containers in their enclosure cause they like dark to eat.

I mostly feed out of enclosure cause I don't want the aspen sticking to the mouse.
And with the one I feed in the enclosure he's on indoor outdoor carpeting.
And my kingsnake I feel like I have to feed him out of the enclosure. He already tries to bite me all the time when I go to pick him up. No need to give him another reason.

Only one of my corns is in a tank and I feed him in that. All my others are in tubs and I feed everyone in their tubs. I have yet to have anyone try to strike at me when it wasn't feeding time (or strike at me at all).

i have one corn that will strike at anything, everyone else only strike at the food

The only reason I don't feed in tank is because I don't like rat or mouse feces in the tank. :P

Feed out of tank at first for awhile, stressed out my snakes way to much. So I started feeding in tank and they started refusing less. I almost got my stomach hit a couple times though with hungry snakes launching out of tubs. Now I am more cautious.

It's a proven fact that feeding out of the enclosure will cause all your children to be born naked...

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Originally Posted by Slim

It's a proven fact that feeding out of the enclosure will cause all your children to be born naked...

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http://i44.tinypic.com/54fyfb.jpg

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Originally Posted by hurricaNe

http://i44.tinypic.com/54fyfb.jpg

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Your point?

I always have and always will. I have never been bitten from any my animals when I reach in to handle. They always have their tongue going and smell whenever I reach in, so they DO know when it's feeding time or handling time.

I feed out of tank. It's how I've done it ever since I got my girl. I started doing it that way because I had heard the old line about her possibly becoming aggressive if I fed her in the cage. Now, after learning more, I realize that may not be the case. However, she's a good reliable feeder, so I don't plan on changing her feeding routine anytime soon. :)

I have always fed my snakes inside their enclosure, and I've had no ill-effects from it. Snakes are rather clever. They know when I have a rat, and they know when I open the enclosure and it's just time to come out and play.

I feed on the tank and always will. I have had some animals that would not eat outside the tubs, but when I feed in the tubs they always eat!

I also don't think it's the best idea to feed in another tank/enclosure because isn't it not good to start picking up snakes soon after they just downed a big rat??

I feed out of the tank for sheer convenience. I have a little lab rat transport case with a mesh top, so just stick the dinner in there. While she's out of the cage I can do stuff like replace the substrate, wash the hides, and do other weekly maintenance. Never had a problem with not taking the food. I've only been bitten once, and it was my fault. If you drop the rat and it lands on the side of the tub, DO NOT reach in and try to pick it up :P.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slim

It's a proven fact that feeding out of the enclosure will cause all your children to be born naked...

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I was wondering what caused that. Thanks for clearing that up. Ha ha. :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by luvmyballs

I was wondering what caused that. Thanks for clearing that up. Ha ha. :rolleye2:

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No worries, in this hobby it's all about paying it forward ;)

I tried feeding outside of the tank at first because I heard from someone it was like "the thing to do" because of possible aspen eating, but my snake refused to eat in a "feeding tub".

Once I started feeding her in her tank she actually ate (I still have to turn off all the lights and leave the room after leaving the P/K mouse in there but as long as she eats!).

What did I miss here...


I was feeding separately for a while and because of this thread and because I thought it may be more convenient I started feeding my snakes in the tubs. The shy normal that I have actually struck out of her hide, which was cool for once because usually I have to leave her all alone in the dark for a while with it. My bee had the same ravenous response he normally had when he was pre-scented in the feeding bin. I've fed them twice in the tubs so far. 48 hours after the second feeding (today) I went to pick up my bee. Before I even slid out the cage I could see he was in full feeding mode and ready to strike. I took the lid off and every movement I made with my hand toward him he responded as if he were going to strike, head bumbling around the whole time (wobbly little guy). I just sat and watched him for a minute and noticed he kept sniffing over the little blood stains that were left from his meal.

TL;DR

How/when do you clean out the cage after your snake eats in there so the scent isn't retained?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrLang

What did I miss here...


I was feeding separately for a while and because of this thread and because I thought it may be more convenient I started feeding my snakes in the tubs. The shy normal that I have actually struck out of her hide, which was cool for once because usually I have to leave her all alone in the dark for a while with it. My bee had the same ravenous response he normally had when he was pre-scented in the feeding bin. I've fed them twice in the tubs so far. 48 hours after the second feeding (today) I went to pick up my bee. Before I even slid out the cage I could see he was in full feeding mode and ready to strike. I took the lid off and every movement I made with my hand toward him he responded as if he were going to strike, head bumbling around the whole time (wobbly little guy). I just sat and watched him for a minute and noticed he kept sniffing over the little blood stains that were left from his meal.

TL;DR

How/when do you clean out the cage after your snake eats in there so the scent isn't retained?

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Mine never do this when they are full. How big is he and how big of prey are you feeding?

sent from my EVO

There is a much easier solution to any potential problem with a snake being ready to eat when you open the bin/cage.
Just get a small snake hook. Touch the snake with it gently, and push its head down, and it will calm down. You can then pick it up. No need to fuss with feeding in a separate enclosure, which, as you noted, ball pythons do not prefer.

He weighs around 150g and eats 23-28g adult mice every 5 days. On the third day he ALWAYS starts prowling like he's hungry.

This just seemed strange because I've never seen him act that way in cage, almost striking at me when I've clearly just covered my hands in sanitizer and there's no mouse or rat anything except the little stain on the paper towel.

People all over this thread are talking about how there's no difference in behavior and I noticed a pretty huge one immediately after switching. It made me think...

Do the 50% of owners who feed in tank with less than 10 snakes do it merely because the breeders do? The breeders do it for convenience and because they're not really worried about shaping a nice family friendly animal, just a fat healthy one? I'm not taking stabs at anyone, but these are questions I'm asking myself after seeing this night and day change in my pet. I'd be really interested to see some input here from the owners who have more than 10 snakes and feed out of their cage and why.

I will try the hook if the behavior continues, or maybe just switch back.

He weighs around 150g and eats 23-28g adult mice every 5 days. On the third day he ALWAYS starts prowling like he's hungry.

This just seemed strange because I've never seen him act that way in cage, almost striking at me when I've clearly just covered my hands in sanitizer and there's no mouse or rat anything except the little stain on the paper towel.

People all over this thread are talking about how there's no difference in behavior and I noticed a pretty huge one immediately after switching. It made me think...

Do the 50% of owners who feed in tank with less than 10 snakes do it merely because the breeders do? The breeders do it for convenience and because they're not really worried about shaping a nice family friendly animal, just a fat healthy one? I'm not taking stabs at anyone, but these are questions I'm asking myself after seeing this night and day change in my pet. I'd be really interested to see some input here from the owners who have more than 10 snakes and feed out of their cage and why.

I will try the hook if the behavior continues, or maybe just switch back.


EDIT: These people- Mistress, ninerballs, RobNJ

Are people calling feeding behavior in their cage 'cage aggression?' Is this just a case of mislabeling what, to me as a casual pet owner, is an undesirable behavior?

when I originally posted this I had a lot of the same questions to. reading your posts makes me a little leary. everybody says there is no such thing as cage aggression but they're certainly seems to be something going on with yours. I'm not a huge breeder either I just want to make sure my kids will be safe if they get into the tanks. I will be curious to see some of the responses. I am still on the fence about this .

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Originally Posted by luvmyballs

when I originally posted this I had a lot of the same questions to. reading your posts makes me a little leary. everybody says there is no such thing as cage aggression but they're certainly seems to be something going on with yours. I'm not a huge breeder either I just want to make sure my kids will be safe if they get into the tanks. I will be curious to see some of the responses. I am still on the fence about this .

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So, because one person witnessed an improved feeding response (out of 91 posts), you're worried about aggression?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrLang

He weighs around 150g and eats 23-28g adult mice every 5 days. On the third day he ALWAYS starts prowling like he's hungry.

This just seemed strange because I've never seen him act that way in cage, almost striking at me when I've clearly just covered my hands in sanitizer and there's no mouse or rat anything except the little stain on the paper towel.

People all over this thread are talking about how there's no difference in behavior and I noticed a pretty huge one immediately after switching. It made me think...

Do the 50% of owners who feed in tank with less than 10 snakes do it merely because the breeders do? The breeders do it for convenience and because they're not really worried about shaping a nice family friendly animal, just a fat healthy one? I'm not taking stabs at anyone, but these are questions I'm asking myself after seeing this night and day change in my pet. I'd be really interested to see some input here from the owners who have more than 10 snakes and feed out of their cage and why.

I will try the hook if the behavior continues, or maybe just switch back.


EDIT: These people- Mistress, ninerballs, RobNJ

Are people calling feeding behavior in their cage 'cage aggression?' Is this just a case of mislabeling what, to me as a casual pet owner, is an undesirable behavior?

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For one, I definitely agree that many people who fear "cage aggression" confuse it with a good feeding response. Personally, I'm more concerned with my animals eating properly than whether I have to tap them with a hook to get them to "snap out of it." Were your snakes striking at you two days after feeding, or just on their regular feeding day, when they could smell prey? I fed my boa for 19 years in his tank, and never had him strike when there was no food around. I feed my BPs in-tub, and have no aggression issues when I handle them on non-feeding days.

Sorry, MrLang, I should have read your post closer - it was a few days after feeding. I have a suggestion: Open the tub, reach in, and pick up your bee (honestly not being sarcastic here). When you hover around overhead, it puts them on guard, especially since that's kind of how dinner arrives, too. I only have one BP that sometimes strikes when I reach in (always has), but many of mine will use the "S" shape just to investigate the sudden light and changes in the environment, without ever striking. If your bee does strike, then you'll just learn how little it actually hurts when a snake that size tags you. ;)

Oh, and although I do breed, I AM also concerned about producing a "family friendly animal," which is why my unfriendly rescue BP would never get adopted to a ten year-old. However, snakes are not and never will be puppies, which owners must choose to accept if they want the joy and responsibility of owning one (or many).

Only my bee has acted this way. He's always been a voracious eater; I switched him from live rat crawlers to frozen mice and from feeding in tank to feeding out of tank in literally 10 seconds. (Wouldn't have switched to mice but I failed in asking what the breeder had them on.) I did just open the cage and go for him, at which time his head started shaking and he reared up to strike, so I retracted. I basically calmed him by shimmying the paper and poking his hide a few times.

I realize he's a predatory animal, but it's not really as inviting when he's curled in his hide in attack mode when I open the cage compared to before, when he'd usually slither right up to the edge of the tank calmly and hang himself out until I picked him up.

Because I'm able to separate feeding response from aggression, I think I'll try the hook technique out.

My original question still stands, though. How soon after feeding do you swap the paper towels and do you notice a reduced response after doing so? Or will he always treat his cage that way when he's hungry, regardless of smell?

Sorry, couldn't edit..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGV0t7_noBg 5:00 - "If I put my hand in the cage and hadn't touched her with the snake hook, I know with 100% certainty that she would have lunged at it"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6D-t54-Q2s 3:20 "When there are rats in the room and I'm feeding one, these guys are very intelligent. As soon as I open the tub, no matter how nice they are, he will launch out of the tub at my face.

What I want to know is if that's the case with animals that don't feed in their cage... and why this isn't more of a point of discussion in this thread. When I fed out of cage and out of room they were extremely calm and didn't start to get eating response excited until I put them down in the feeding tub. After eating, they were a little grumpy to be picked up but didn't give any kind of feeding response to being picked up.

I know this is a touchy subject, and everyone has their opinions. However, I don't think that people who only have a few snakes as pets, wouldn't want to have to hook train them if it can be avoided by feeding out of tank. If they are eating fine out of tank, I wouldn't even worry about going back to that, and regaining your mellow pet. And yes people with kids and snakes realize that they aren't puppies, nor will they ever be anything like that. But I think most people would agree that if their kids wanted to be involved with the snakes
(Which is a great learning experience). The kids would have to understand all about them and have rules, they would also want to have nice friendly pets, that they they didn't have to "hook train". I can see where for breeders its easier to feed in tub, but for the pet owner with just a few, if they are eating in the tubs, go for it. They are still eating so don't worry about where they are eating. If they were stressed out, they wouldn't eat.

*shrugs*
A) A small hook doesn't cost any more than a separate tank.
B) Most ball pythons are fine unless it's near feeding day, regardless.
C) Some snakes will launch at you for food when they're hungry, no matter where you feed them.
D) A fairly large number of ball pythons either feed poorly (skipping meals), or won't feed at all, if put into a separate cage to do so.

All that in mind, my opinion is still--it's best to feed ball pythons in their own cage, where they are comfortable, as this is more important than our comfort, and doesn't pose much of an inconvenience, even if the snake does develop cage aggression. If you have a ball python, and feed it in a separate cage, and it eats every time when it's not in shed, then great...by all means, continue to do so. However, if you feed in a separate cage, and your ball python is a picky eater, it's time to think about changing things.

Thanks for the input all. Not sure how I'll proceed from here but I'm glad that new owners may read and consider this part of the issue in deciding for themselves.

Like I said, I was really surprised that nobody spoke about this elsewhere in the thread. Forgive me if I missed it. As a newbie snake owner who bought them to handle and not to watch them kill things, this is a big deal to me. If others come across this and feel the same, if you can get them to eat out of their cage and it doesn't seem to freak them out too much - my advise is to do it. It's my 1 cent observation that there IS a difference in behavior when you feed in and out of the cage. I definitely wouldn't label it 'aggression,' but that doesn't mean I'm trying to go Steve Irwin on my pet just to hold it.

Oh, and I weighed my snakes after the comment about meal size. Apparently they both grew over 50 grams in the last 3 weeks, outgrowing the bag of 50 adult mice I just recently bought for them. Awesome... good thing there's another expo in a month to buy rats :D

Not before a week ago but now I do and there is nothing wrong with it.


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.223632,-96.899868

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

So, because one person witnessed an improved feeding response (out of 91 posts), you're worried about aggression?



For one, I definitely agree that many people who fear "cage aggression" confuse it with a good feeding response. Personally, I'm more concerned with my animals eating properly than whether I have to tap them with a hook to get them to "snap out of it." Were your snakes striking at you two days after feeding, or just on their regular feeding day, when they could smell prey? I fed my boa for 19 years in his tank, and never had him strike when there was no food around. I feed my BPs in-tub, and have no aggression issues when I handle them on non-feeding days.

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actually I'm not really worried about anything.I merely made a cautious statement regarding children and snakes . I realize most are in favor of feeding in tank.I like to take people's opinions good or bad right or wrong and extrapolate my own opinions based on what I've heard and my personal experiences. there are some extremely knowledgeable people on this post and I value their opinions. I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way. I think it's a matter of opinion and what works best for each individual person. I have 1 snake that will only feed in tank and live. the others feed fine in tubs .