Desert problems

And to go a step further. The man that told me this owns several of Kevin's animals (spiders included).... Guess what? They don't wobble. That, I have seen first hand. I have also heard him on the phone with Kevin, so I know they "talk". You can take it for what it's worth. Believe it or not. I'm going to work with it myself to "prove" whether or not it works. But getting information from someone like that, especially knowing they've had their hands in that project for almost 2 decades..... I believed it. Call me crazy, but best friends are usually the people you trust the most. And if you have a "best friend" you don't trust then it really isn't a "best friend" now is it.

You say all that like ~I~ am supposed to trust YOUR best friend. Or you, for that matter. I don't know who you are. And have even less idea who your "best friend" is.

THIS is exactly how baseless moronic rumors get started. "I heard someone say that someone said..." and then going off and repeating such things as if they are cold hard facts. I have no doubt that YOU believe it. But you are absolutely right when you suggested that maybe it wasn't your place to mention it.

Oh well this awkward, my apologies. I looked at the website and thats what it said...Idk why two morphs would have the same name, thats stupid.

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

I'm huge on spotnoses and he didn't want me to produce powerballs with wobbles.

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Forgive my derailment.... But why would a powerball wobble? I'm huge on spotnose combos as well and I've never heard or any issues with them what so ever.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

Forgive my derailment.... But why would a powerball wobble? I'm huge on spotnose combos as well and I've never heard or any issues with them what so ever.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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This will potentially my first season to produce one. That's just what I've heard through the grape vine. I've personally never had an issue with a spotnose, but then again I've never owned a powerball. So I'm not going to speculate, just take his advice until I know for sure otherwise. To me it makes sense that lower incubation temps would reduce the chances of the possiblity of kinks, wobbles, etc. Not saying that any specific mutation for sure one way or the other has a wobble. I'm just saying that I'll be incubating mine at lower temps because of what I've heard.

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Originally Posted by JLC

You say all that like ~I~ am supposed to trust YOUR best friend. Or you, for that matter. I don't know who you are. And have even less idea who your "best friend" is.

THIS is exactly how baseless moronic rumors get started. "I heard someone say that someone said..." and then going off and repeating such things as if they are cold hard facts. I have no doubt that YOU believe it. But you are absolutely right when you suggested that maybe it wasn't your place to mention it.

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Let me apologize for any problems my comment might have caused this community. Personally I feel like it's a personal problem between you and I. You disagree with what I said, so that's fine. No worries. I'll still say I'm sorry directly to you if it makes things any better.

BTW I never asked you to believe my friend or me. It's what I think is true based on things I've heard from people I trust. Lemme ask you this. How else would the information get out there? It's not really exact until several people proved it otherwise. So wouldn't you want people to know your thoughts even if they weren't necessarily fact based or thought to be fact based rather.

I'll admit it wasn't my place to necessarily call Kevin out, but I'm also sure it's no skin off his back either. All I can say is this, If what I say is true, then at least more people know now than did before. :)

I'm going to leave with this. Kevin embraces his elusiveness. And my comments weren't directed at Kevin in a bad way. I was simply trying to make the point that he doesn't own a desert and he admitted that on a YouTube video. That's the point at hand here, becuase that is what this thread is about. Whether the spider comment is true or not, whatever. The FACT is that Kevin doesn't have a hand in this project, so anything he says one way or the other about it means nothing to me (a person that does have a hand in it). And it shouldn't to anyone else that believes in finding things out for themselves with "hands on" breeding. Wouldn't anything he said about the desert be "moronic rumors" since he would have had to have heard them from someone else if he was saying anything about the desert considering he admitted to not owning one? Just saying. You are calling what I say out. What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

... You are calling what I say out. What's the difference?

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Here's the difference...

"I've heard it said that incubating spiders at lower than normal temps eliminates the wobble. I think I'll give it a try and will see if that works." <--- Interesting theory that doesn't impugn anyone's reputation and does not put itself out as some sort of fact without any proof.

"Kevin is a very bad person for intentionally withholding critical information about the well being of the animals he breeds and sells to other people." <--- A vicious rumor based on nothing but hearsay that can't be backed up or examined by anyone, but will very likely be taken and run with by any number of bozos who enjoy repeating crap like that for no other reason than they read it somewhere.

SEE the difference???

Kevin can speculate all he wants about what may or may not be the issue with deserts. As can we all. There's nothing wrong with speculation, so long as one doesn't forget that's exactly what it is.

Talk with Ben Renick. Hes got many Adult female deserts and had a few Die due to Egg Binding, which is all to common in desert females. And hes yet to get a viable clutch from them.

Deserts been out 10+ years now, plenty of time to know if their fertile or not. Every other mutation has evolved beyond expectation in 10 years, but the Desert is the exception why.

Ill never own one ever as its a waste of time and money proving out what will never be.

I would still consider a male down the road. No one can argue they make spectacular combos. Problem is even the combo females are hard to sell. Also the females dying from attempting to lay fertile eggs is discouraging..

Who else is currently trying to prove out desert females that are old enough to breed? I'm curious because I really would love to hear more about it.. Even failures! I want to know where it's going on mostly--do they mostly just not even take? Do many of them make it all the way and lay slugs? Curious if even getting them gravid is rare. It's hard to tell without knowing who is doing what!

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Originally Posted by JLC

Here's the difference...

"I've heard it said that incubating spiders at lower than normal temps eliminates the wobble. I think I'll give it a try and will see if that works." <--- Interesting theory that doesn't impugn anyone's reputation and does not put itself out as some sort of fact without any proof.

"Kevin is a very bad person for intentionally withholding critical information about the well being of the animals he breeds and sells to other people." <--- A vicious rumor based on nothing but hearsay that can't be backed up or examined by anyone, but will very likely be taken and run with by any number of bozos who enjoy repeating crap like that for no other reason than they read it somewhere.

SEE the difference???

Kevin can speculate all he wants about what may or may not be the issue with deserts. As can we all. There's nothing wrong with speculation, so long as one doesn't forget that's exactly what it is.

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Fair enough. I just don't feel it's necessary for anyone to be quoting him based on this particular morph. I honestly wasn't trying to make Kevin out to be a bad guy, just making a point that he does keep information. Which he openly admits. Really not trying to make him out to be a bad guy. I know what I initially said sounded that way, so that's why I apologized.

I would not remotely consider a desert male even at the current prices. There is a good thread over on BLBC about what someone would pay for a Desert. Obviously, there are folks willing to gamble with a few thousand bucks and are paying the current prices.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I would not remotely consider a desert male even at the current prices. There is a good thread over on BLBC about what someone would pay for a Desert. Obviously, there are folks willing to gamble with a few thousand bucks and are paying the current prices.

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What are you gambling with if you buy a male? You aren't. Desert males have no problem with reproducing the gene. You aren't gambling. If anything you would be protecting the investment knowing that only males can reproduce it and the market won't get flooded with another co-dom. The only problem I could see with it is selling the females. Well sell them extremely cheap if you are convinced they won't produce. Males will still grab a fair price for some time. And I've still seen people throw $1500 at desert females (recently).

Also you gamble when you buy any animal. You gamble with it's life (whether it will thrive), whether or not it will reproduce, be a strong breeder, etc. This gamble is no different. If you are in it for the long haul then $2000 is nothing. You'll spend that on plenty of animals before it's all said and done, and I'd bet that not all of them will breed successfully. This whole industry is a gamble.

People that wait to get into the project are just losing valuable time and money with the gene. A couple thousand is pocket change in this industry. Look at the money a world first grabs or a new gene from Africa. There are still HUNDREDS of worlds first yet to be created with this gene. And by the time all the nay sayers get one, it'll be to late and deserts (single gene) will be like the spider, pinstripe and everyting else.... CHEAP!

There are obviously a couple of stances on the subject, and that is mine. So knock yourself out with all the Deserts you please. I choose to go a different direction.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

There are obviously a couple of stances on the subject, and that is mine. So knock yourself out with all the Deserts you please. I choose to go a different direction.

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I realize there are a couple of stances on the gene. I also realize there is only one stance that matters and that's the stance you personally take. Just letting you know that you are going to gamble with whatever you buy. I still don't understand how the desert is a gamble though. You said yourself people are willing to spend a couple thousand on one. So why don't you wanna breed them again? A couple thousand per morph sounds great to me. I'm not trying to persuade you to buy a desert either. Not everyone loves each morph the same.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Talk with Ben Renick. Hes got many Adult female deserts and had a few Die due to Egg Binding, which is all to common in desert females. And hes yet to get a viable clutch from them.

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This is what really concerns me about the desert female issue. The few reports I've read of breeders posting their desert female failures involve the female becoming egg bound (not just slugging out). IMO there's a big difference between an animal that just can't reproduce, and one that is at risk of losing its life if it tries. (And yes, I know that every female animal is at risk of losing her life through breeding -- but if it's almost a given with desert girls, that makes me seriously question if I would want to work with the gene.)

If the girls are just sterile -- no death involved -- I would still love to pick up a desert male. I think it's a gorgeous morph with some knockout combos. I just would be worried about producing females if the females were doomed to dystocia and death from breeding.

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

I'm about 99% sure that he said he didn't own a desert in the video Raphael did with him talking about the desert and lethal combos. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say it.

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Watch his other videos, he DOES have deserts. A bunch of 2011 offspring have desert in it, so again I'm not sure where your coming off saying he doesn't own any? Pay attention.

deserts available from NERD. they're listed on the same page as all the wobble-cured spiders.

http://newenglandreptile.com/cart/85-desert

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

I realize there are a couple of stances on the gene. I also realize there is only one stance that matters and that's the stance you personally take. Just letting you know that you are going to gamble with whatever you buy. I still don't understand how the desert is a gamble though. You said yourself people are willing to spend a couple thousand on one. So why don't you wanna breed them again? A couple thousand per morph sounds great to me. I'm not trying to persuade you to buy a desert either. Not everyone loves each morph the same.

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If you do not see the gamble in the Desert gene, then by all mean go for it, if you have not already. Good luck not making all or mostly females on your first clutch. I think for the big breeders that can run the project on the side, it is great and I wish them luck. For a small breeder, it is probably not a great idea to invest in.

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

I think the more people who get involved in the project, the faster we'll know what's up! Those brave enough to buy them early get a chance at a huge payout if they breed as well as we all hope they do. :)

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im purchasing a female for 150 and i pray she proves out! im willing to throw down 150 dollars to prove out snakes and make 2000 dollar snakes. wish me luck.

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Originally Posted by ColoradoConstrictors

im purchasing a female for 150 and i pray she proves out! im willing to throw down 150 dollars to prove out snakes and make 2000 dollar snakes. wish me luck.

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The money is not the point. It is pretty well known at this point that attempting to breed a female Desert may KILL HER. I hope you have taken that in to consideration.

Ive purchased a male and female desert both are pro exotics blood lines i plan on working with the females i personally dont see a lost cause i see a diamond in the rough, the desert gene was found in the wild how would the gene thrive without being able to reproduce? there is a way nobody has figured it out yet people just need to think outside of the box and venture out of the traditional route

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Originally Posted by mybandit90

Ive purchased a male and female desert both are pro exotics blood lines i plan on working with the females i personally dont see a lost cause i see a diamond in the rough, the desert gene was found in the wild how would the gene thrive without being able to reproduce? there is a way nobody has figured it out yet people just need to think outside of the box and venture out of the traditional route

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See Jinx's post. It's not a matter of thinking outside the box, it's a life threatening ordeal to put them through. Your snakes and your choice, but I hope you put more thought into it for the snake's sake

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Originally Posted by mybandit90

Ive purchased a male and female desert both are pro exotics blood lines i plan on working with the females i personally dont see a lost cause i see a diamond in the rough, the desert gene was found in the wild how would the gene thrive without being able to reproduce? there is a way nobody has figured it out yet people just need to think outside of the box and venture out of the traditional route

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The males reproduce. They aren't a recessive gene. The females do not reproduce and enough bigger guys than casual hobbiests have tried enough times that THEY care enough about the life of a single female to not ever breed females again.

With all the cases of females dying, any one else trying would be blatantly giving their females a death sentence, which I personally find extremely wreckless.

Even if ONE person successfully got a female to reproduce, it would only serve to be a death sentence to more females as others tried to be that 1% chance.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by mybandit90

people just need to think outside of the box and venture out of the traditional route

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Do you have any "outside of the box" suggestions? Keeping ball pythons is hardly rocket science, and while many people have different opinions and such, there are still well defined parameters as to what can and can't be done with them.

My biggest worry these days is the people buying a desert female because prices have dropped through the floor thinking they are going to be the ones to "crack the code" and be able to breed them successfully, despite a number of well documented fails. This is the biggest reason I'd never buy a desert male to breed...I don't want the burden of selling females, no matter how inexpensively, knowing that people will no doubt go ahead a breed them anyway.

I bet you a lot of the bigger breeders, or any smart breeder, has gotten rid of all of their Desert stuff. It is a dead end project. I know that George Sampson ditched his. Why spend the effort and the space on something that is going to produce useless pet females? Females are USELESS. The way odds work yes you could end up with a clutch of males, but guess what? You can also end up with a clutch of all females.
There is no "magic" formula to get females to produce and live.

Not saying that no one should or will mess with the Desert anymore.think about it. Females are not worth 300 imo. They are less valuable than a normal. I think males are still way to overvalued. I have seen them selling in the 300-400 range so far. Which I think better suits the project.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

My biggest worry these days is the people buying a desert female because prices have dropped through the floor thinking they are going to be the ones to "crack the code" and be able to breed them successfully, despite a number of well documented fails. This is the biggest reason I'd never buy a desert male to breed...I don't want the burden of selling females, no matter how inexpensively, knowing that people will no doubt go ahead a breed them anyway.

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My feelings exactly.

Especially since people still insist on referring to the females as "useless" ... To me, it demonstrates that we as a hobby are still just too focused on breeding, breeding, breeding for the idea of a "pet only" animal to stick.

Personally, I'd love to have a tiger or other combo desert female as a pet -- I think they're gorgeous, and that way I can have one to gawk at without messing around with the potential ethical issues of selling females. I do agree, however, that $300 is still way too high to pay for a desert female when there are so many other morphs that are available for <$300 -- some of which, like the albino, appeal much more to the average pet owner ..!

I have considered getting into the deserts. My wife and I have no problem keeping the females as pets or give them to my kids, but then again I don't want to get into a project that ends up dead. Desert combos are amazing looking, but I can't keep them all