Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

Actually the other question i asked was, do you debilitate the food before giving it to your snake? And how? A quick bop in the head?

IF you feed f/t...how do you keep the food item warm? Usually my pets slither around, see it, stop, strike, and eat it pretty quickly. But every now and then one sniffs around it for a long time before consuming, and I think it's because the food item cools off. They still eat it, but Id' like to find a more efficient way to keep it warm for them.

I have one snake refusing f/t right now, other wise it's all f/t. And with feeding the one live, I stun the rats (yup, a quick bop on the head) and hold them in front of the snake, and he gobbles them up right away, yet he refuses f/t... bugger! :P
As for keeping the rodent warm, I've honestly never bothered. If they don't eat it right away, they eat it cold over night, and if they refuse that meal, they wait till next feeding time.

I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them.

I've fed well over 15K live prey, with no issues or injuries. I don't have a calculator handy to do the percentages, but even if I had say 3 significant injuries in 15K feedings, it's much less than a 1% risk of injury. It's something like .0003% chance.

I have no desire to thaw out 60+ rodents every week, nor the time to do the zombie dance to 60+ snakes.

Ball pythons are well designed to quickly and efficiently dispatch their prey. I open a tub, drop rat in, listen for the thump, and repeat - 59 more times.

I fed all of my snakes live. My most recent snake - a retic, will eat live or pk. The first few times I fed her pk I did the zombie dance, she came out from under her log, and stuck. That's great and all, but it's so much different than feeding her live. She's in a 55gal aquarium with looooots of foliage,obstacles and hides and a multi level system of sorts. She'll actually stalk her mouse or rat for 10-15 minutes till it dawns on her "hey that's food". The feeding response is crazy, after the first mouse the next one (if the pet store is out of small rats) goes almost instantly. In our efforts to make it as safe as we can for them we're turning their lives into a dull existance. They live in an enclosure for 90% of their lives. It's the least I can do for her, is give her a bit of excitement. After the first one she's.all excited and wobbly and twitchy. It makes me happy because I know she's.got some adrenaline going through her little body for the first time that week. If the strike isn't a headshot and there's room to maneuver and bite, I end the rodents struggle right there. I supervise the entire feeding session. One rat bite on the snakes body isn't going to cause major damage unless its on the head. All of these horrible pictures you see on the internet of snakes being gnawed down to the spine are from irresponsible owners leaving rats in with their snakes overnight.

Feed live but do it responsibly or feed pk/ft. That's how I see it.

Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk

I love that you are trying to come at this from a fact based perspective. Let me first comment on a few things you mention

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

There is no problem refreezing. The cold needed to freeze the meat, kills bacteria. Not to mention, ball pythons will eat found food "in the wild" and will, and do, eat "found" food in captivity. My dumeril's boas will ONLY eat food i leave out for them. Feel free to find facts to disprove that a ball will eat already dead, and/or slightly "gone bad" food. Also feel free to find out if freezing things will kill most bacteria.

---

I would only refreeze once. After that I would not trust it. I could be wrong on this. What do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Please be specific....how many generations is "several"? I would think a breeder like say, Corey Woods, or Raph Davis have a considerable amount of generations under their belt. Quite a bit more than "several".
Just a glance from wikipedia "Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'[1]. Therefore, a defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans."

It would not take more than -my- definition of "Several" ...for generations of ball pythons to become more quickly adapted to captivity, humans, and though would still have an instinct to kill for food...would be dimmed into thinking f/t is perfectly fine.


A learned behavior is exactly that...something learned. Any hatchling would only have instinct. I think you've used the term in error...did you pet peeve yourself? lol
The two hatchlings may have the same basic instincts, however a domesticated/captive bred animal would adapt far quicker to becoming more docile. The captive bred animal accepting any new Learned Behavior of being domesticated, quicker than the wild caught animals that still have a high instinct....because it hasn't been bred out of them over "several" generations.

---

Ok you said a lot here but lets look at the nova special on fox. The Russians took the tamest 3 or so percent of the fox at a fur farm to start this study and then domesticated selecting for the most tame. The ball python community is not selecting for most likely to eat F/T and therefor there is very little change in that behavior. Domestication is not a single thing. It's much more complicated than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

It shouldn't be opinion at all, however it's easier for people to justify their feeding, or their not feeding, as so. There are facts, which is what I asked for, though I have not seen many in response. So, you are correct in say both are opinions, really I just wish people would say more than their opinion.

It should be looked at by a case by case basis, such as it would factually be more appropriate to feed a wild caught, or a higher instinct snake live food...compared to a more domesticated animal that has say....been, handled, picked, chosen, bred and sold to be docile.

---

You are right that it should be based on more than opinion but you can't force people to make decisions the way you feel they should. Also Ball Pythons have not been bred and sold to be docile. They are naturally docile and they have been bred for their color morphs or not selected for above and beyond, those that survive in captivity have a chance to breed. Don't forget a large number of BP's sold in pet shops are very few if any generations removed from the wild.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

There is a NOVA study done on dogs wild foxes that shows that a wild pack, which had been bred, and had certain foxes with certain traits selected for less more than three generations ended with an end group of happy, licking, lovable foxes...and another group of violent, angry, afraid, wild and snarling pups.

SO really, despite how I am actually not someone who feeds my snakes live, and will have no problem trying to transition a live eater to f/t...i in no way think it's a needed "excitement" or "better" for the snake, or "cruel" to the snake to not let it eat live. Unless I actually walk outside and pick up a random snake, the snakes I have are in the pet trade, and have been bred in the pet trade. They are a portion domesticated, you must concede, and will adapt easier and fuller to the conditions i'd prefer for their safety.

---

I believe you are 100% correct that the snakes don't "need excitement." These snakes just want to eat. The reason they constrict F/T is not necessarily because they are fooled into believing the rodent is alive. They have evolved to assume prey is alive as failure to do so can and does result in bites that can lead to death. I don't concede that BP are partially domesticated though. I don't see at as relevant regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Anyway, it seems like a lot of people don't have a yay or nay opinion, as much as it's easier for them to feed their snakes live. That is a fact i was looking for....not an opinion.

It also seems like a lot of people are really responsible, and try to keep their snakes safe. I really like that. There is no reason to have the snake hurt, at all. We are the captors, protectors, and caregivers for our pets. and they ARE pets... they ARE captive...it's up to us to keep them in safe situations.
I know I appreciate reading that people don't leave their pets alone with other animals that could harm them. I've seen too many hurt animals from irresponsible people!

---

The fact is that many snakes won't easily take F/T so that alone is a big reason many people feed live. I also feed my BP live. I don't feed my diamond x jungle carpet live anymore. To explain my carpet is now eating adult rodents and will take F/T or pre killed. She has also proven to be a great eater. For that reason and out of concern for her safty I feed her pre killed or F/T. My BP is a totally different story. She won't take anything but live. Now I have stopped trying to switch her to F/T and will never try again for good reason. She is a bad eater. I have fussed over husbandry and she just is a bad eater. So on her last 160 day fast I offered her a rodent every 10 days. That's 15 refusals. If I refreeze once (as earlier I said I won't do so more than once) I would have thrown at least 7 rodents away. Now I have no problem with a rodent dying to feed my snake. I do have a problem with a rodent dying to feed my trash. So now that I have a carpet that will shortly be on the same size rodent I could offer F/T again but with her eating as infrequently as she does I think it would be irresponsible of me to even potentially be the cause of a refusal when she might have eaten live. There are reasons why a person would feed live. Having told us all that you have I see no good reason whatsoever why YOU should feed live.

1) New hatchlings vastly prefer live, and some of my adults refuse to eat anything else. I see trying to start hatchlings on F/T as a waste of time. They can be switched over later. Also, convincing 70 uncertain hatchlings to eat F/T takes hours and hours.

2) It takes 2 hours (or less) to feed live to a collection of 100 snakes. It takes 4 hours to feed F/T. Uneaten live rodents in a closed collection, during the breeding season, can be returned to my rodent rack. Uneaten F/T goes in the trash.

3) No fussing with dangling a rodent over a marginally interested snake's head for 15 minutes while it makes up its mind.

4) It is possible that live or fresh PK is somewhat more nutritious than F/T.

That having been said, F/T is much safer, and I try to get my animals to accept it. I fed primarily F/T until a local rodent breeder set up shop here, enabling me to pick up rodent orders every week. It's just been easier to feed live since then. I may switch back to part F/T for animals I want to feed more often than once a week, though.

Live feedings must be carefully supervised. If a snake is inept at it, use PK.

If you have a smaller collection, and you can use F/T, I'd advise using F/T. When I have an employee, I will switch back to primarily F/T.

I've heard it isn't a terrible idea to sprinkle some rat/mouse food in the corner to distract the prey!

I've noticed that after a while of feeding f/t (if the snake was eating live before) they become very sluggish and inactive. They won't actually strike and coil, they'll just put their mouth on it and start swallowing.

I feed a mixture of both (all of my snakes will take either live or pre killed). They seem healthier and more alert when feeding live.

Just my two cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carlisleishere

I think the main reason people feed live is convenience (it's just an opinion, it may not be the truth). I reason this because I find most people who feed live breed the feeders themselves, so there is less processing of the rat.

---

that assumes there's more effort in thawing a few rats a week than raising a rat colony.

feeding live is super convenient because you can just buy one and give it to the snake without any preparation needed. another huge plus to this is you don't need to keep a freezer full of rats.

i'll personally resort to feeding live if the snake won't take frozen, and there are plenty of snakes that will either only eat live or eat live muchhh more readily

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them.

I've fed well over 15K live prey, with no issues or injuries. I don't have a calculator handy to do the percentages, but even if I had say 3 significant injuries in 15K feedings, it's much less than a 1% risk of injury. It's something like .0003% chance.

I have no desire to thaw out 60+ rodents every week, nor the time to do the zombie dance to 60+ snakes.

Ball pythons are well designed to quickly and efficiently dispatch their prey. I open a tub, drop rat in, listen for the thump, and repeat - 59 more times.

---

Couldn't of said it better!

I feed live, to be honest, because it is easier. I breed my own rats, and my snakes readily take live rats. I don't like the hassle of thawing/warming live rats, it stinks and it's gross. I love rats, I have had pet rats for 5 years, but I would be prefer feeding live over frozen. I don't, however, enjoy watching/hearing the rats die. I really don't watch the snakes eat.

Frozen is cheaper and easier since that dead rat wont try to kill your snake running for its life but...

Sometimes the snake just wants something on the run and they can not pull up to the drive thru

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

I feed live, to be honest, because it is easier. I breed my own rats, and my snakes readily take live rats. I don't like the hassle of thawing/warming live rats, it stinks and it's gross. I love rats, I have had pet rats for 5 years, but I would be prefer feeding live over frozen. I don't, however, enjoy watching/hearing the rats die. I really don't watch the snakes eat.

---

I just hope ppl don't use bowls or cups to put the rat to thaw in. That's gross. Just dead animals in peoples fridge besides pork, chicken etc is gross lol. Just saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KingPythons

I just hope ppl don't use bowls or cups to put the rat to thaw in. That's gross. Just dead animals in peoples fridge besides pork, chicken etc is gross lol. Just saying.

---

I think most are like me and have a dedicated freezer for frozen feeders. I also have dedicated round plastic storage containers that I use to thaw mine out. They look completely different than all my other storage containers so they never accidentally get put with my food containers...and are kept by the freezer.

Almost all of my snakes came to me eating f/t. I have had one so far that would only take live. I didn't attempt to force the issue of f/t on her. Each week I'd attempt f/t and she'd show no interest so I'd feed her live. She eventually decided to take f/t.

Years ago when I used to keep snakes, I only fed live because that's what I was told to do....it was best for them. It wasn't until I rescued a burm and watched the battle* I immediately looked for an alternative, which was f/t. All my animals had no issues making the switch either.

*ok it wasn't a real battle. I just couldn't stand watching the rat claw and try to bite my snake as it was being squeezed to death. I was scared he was going to hurt my snake!

I'm currently feeding live to the ones who aren't off feed for breeding season. The reason is because neither of them will accept f/t or even prekilled.

I've tried multiple times on the one and a couple of times on the baby and it's a no-go so far. I wish those two would switch over. Their food stinks and has to be fed and cleaned up after.

I think it's up to the owner to decide what's more convenient to them. We could argue all day the pros and cons of F/T vs F/K vs live and really get nowhere as each method has its merits.

I do wonder from those who think their snakes are happier one way or another, how do you know this? I honestly don't think a snake gives two farts one way or another but that's just me.

Forgot to add, I usually feed f/t, sometimes fresh killed and seldom live. I do offer food to the shy feeders first so if they don't feed I can just give the dead rodent to one of my other animals so as not to waste unnecessarily.

You are so right, John1982.

AH, i had this huuuge post with questions, pics, and responses, and the darn thing lost internet connection as i was posting and i lost it all. I gave up posting for a day i was so irritated *lol* that hasn't happened to me before in 13 years on the internet so i guess i was due.

ANYway...the main thing i had wanted to comment on was rabernet, who said "I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them."

I'll just be blunt here and ask why you think it's okay that your other snakes are allowed blemishes, or scratches, or worse...but your favorite isn't. That is like admitting that yes, they DO get hurt from live food...but you have one that is more worthy of not getting hurt.
Just weird.

Egapal, i had what i thought was a great debate to respond with, but i'll just shorten it to that I think f/t can be re-frozen as many times as it takes, as long as there is no introduced bacteria that is resilient to freezing....or there is no freezer burn.
That is also why i think it's weird people insist they have to throw out food, if the snake doesn't eat it the first try. F/T are way cheaper than live, at least for me. In a year, i think i've thrown out two mice because they became too rank.
In the wild, BPs will eat corpses of rodents, etc. They do that at my house too...one of my dumeril's won't even take food unless it's left in her cage for a few hours. The previous owner said she was afraid of live, so i haven't tried....which if i did, i would probably still go for a bop on the head first!

I do concede that perhaps BPs are not fully domesticated, as i did look it up and they are constantly imported (which i think is ridiculous and unnecessary). You are right in saying they were chosen as a great pet because they are mostly naturally docile...
Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "

I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control....even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually :)
He's actually the most violent dude i have besides my carpet python.
His name is "Bitey" LOL
He snatches his food, and will protect it (not just look over it for a good place to start eating), and he will CHARGE you, and try to chase you away if you come near. That's funny too, but i really try to stay away from him when he's eating *lol* My other 3 bps, and my other many snakes act nothing like this.
But the brat still waits for his human go give him water!
That is, to me, a clear sign of domestication, even at a small level.

Anyway, i don't think i can change anyone's opinion. I don't really like the idea of feeding live...but i understand the need in CERTAIN cases. As for people with like 60 snakes, i feel it's just lazy. No offense, but really...we cage them, provide for them, and they could not survive in captivity without us...so why wouldn't we at least WATCH to make sure they are not hurt? Of course their scales provide protection...that's how they were designed. They are more durable than our skin...which is OUR protection..but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable or like armor or something. Jeez, These are two of my rescue snakes.

Jasper has a huge scar along his underside from the kick of a rabbit...not to mention numerous bite marks and messed up scales from rats.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_233138.jpg
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_233044.jpg

Ribs (so called because he was 1.5lbs at 4 feet in length and almost dead from dehydration and starvation) has a scarred over nostril...though you can't see it very well here, though you can see the tail scar.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_224209.jpg
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_224229.jpg

Just really unnecessary. If we don't have the time to watch our animals and make sure they are safe and not getting "Blemmishes" then we just shouldn't own the animal. If we have so many we can't make the time? Same thing.

These may be extreme cases...though I have seen and heard of worse...but WHY risk it? Why? Because it's easier for us, or we're lazy? *snort* that's just wrong.

I am fine with live if you beat it on the head, and WATCH your snake. Whatever is cheaper for you, fine, but i cringe when i hear all these people saying they have double figure #'s of snakes and they just throw food in there.

I've seen a rat attack a snake when introduced to a bin exactly once, in 4 years of feeding ball pythons.
In the vast majority of cases, a rat will not actually go after a snake unless it's left alone with the snake for hours. I drop rats in, observe briefly, and close the bin. I come back through and remove all of the uneaten rodents 10 minutes later. Some of my snakes absolutely will not eat if I have the bin open. What is ideal isn't always practical. I have some snakes that will eat anything you hand to them--FT off tongs, off the cage floor, live, whatever--as soon as it hits the bin, they grab it. Other snakes need privacy, and a bit longer to make up their mind.

It's absolutely not safe to leave live rodents in with snakes for long periods of time, but short periods of time aren't too terribly likely to result in anything drastic happening, other than an eaten rodent.

Even FT is not 100% safe, you know. Rodents have long, sharp teeth, and there have been rare incidents...but far more than just one...where snakes have died after eating because those teeth perforated their esophagus. We can't protect them from everything.

Ideally, they eat FT...but it's better for them to eat something, than to be offered FT and refuse more often than not. Some snakes just don't accept it well.

I've had more snakes find creative ways to minorly injure themselves on water bowls than I have seen injured by rodents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Some of my snakes absolutely will not eat if I have the bin open. What is ideal isn't always practical. I have some snakes that will eat anything you hand to them--FT off tongs, off the cage floor, live, whatever--as soon as it hits the bin, they grab it. Other snakes need privacy, and a bit longer to make up their mind.

---

Little brats *lol* and understood. Case by case is of course realistic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's absolutely not safe to leave live rodents in with snakes for long periods of time, but short periods of time aren't too terribly likely to result in anything drastic happening, other than an eaten rodent.

---

Indeed! I just hope people realize that. I just got the impression that people just throw one in, and that's it. Until next feeding. They're too busy to worry about it, kind of thing. I really hope that's not the case for anyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Even FT is not 100% safe, you know. Rodents have long, sharp teeth, and there have been rare incidents...but far more than just one...where snakes have died after eating because those teeth perforated their esophagus. We can't protect them from everything.

---

That is a fact! I must admit, not too long ago I heard of this happening to a snake. I got all paranoid. Unless i sit there pulling rat teeth though, what am I going to do about it? I can clip toenails...or at least in our case we soak our meals until they thaw, and then warm, so i'm sure the keratin in then nails soften...so i don't usually cut them down. But teeth...if they're going to get hurt sometimes, they just are. I try to mother and protect them as much as i can, though *lol*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Ideally, they eat FT...but it's better for them to eat something, than to be offered FT and refuse more often than not. Some snakes just don't accept it well.

---

Yup. But, that doesn't mean i'm not going to keep trying, or not bop it in the head, or freeze it if it dies, and try to refeed anyway *lol* I guess i just want to hear that it's worth the time, for people to take that little extra step. I know i'm not going to change anyone's mind, but maybe they'll just think about things a little differently sometimes. Hey, prevention is the first cure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I've had more snakes find creative ways to minorly injure themselves on water bowls than I have seen injured by rodents.

---

LOL That is true. I do realize i'm putting extreme cases out there. My problem is not even really live food...it's the attitude, and lack of enthusiasim i see sometimes.

Anyway...One last question I forgot about! If you feed live...what do you do about fleas?? I'm going to be treating a snake next week (after the good'ol paycheck) for tapeworms. I've read that they get these, from the fleas ingested along with live food.

Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Egapal, i had what i thought was a great debate to respond with, but i'll just shorten it to that I think f/t can be re-frozen as many times as it takes, as long as there is no introduced bacteria that is resilient to freezing....or there is no freezer burn.

---

If you believe this strongly then I would suggest you try this experiment. Buy two steaks. Freeze them both. Thaw one and then leave it out on the counter for a few hours then refreeze it. Repeat this more than twice and then thaw them both cook them. Let me know if you can taste a difference. The cells walls rupture when ice crystals form. If you do this more than a few times it really changes what you are eating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

That is also why i think it's weird people insist they have to throw out food, if the snake doesn't eat it the first try. F/T are way cheaper than live, at least for me. In a year, i think i've thrown out two mice because they became too rank.

---

You are lucky. Did you read my story about my snake that did not eat for 9 months. I am glad you brought up that frozen is cheaper. I don't care about that. I care about minimizing the suffering and death that I cause. I have seen how some of these big places raise their rodents and I am much happier with the quality of life my rodents have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

In the wild, BPs will eat corpses of rodents, etc. They do that at my house too...one of my dumeril's won't even take food unless it's left in her cage for a few hours. The previous owner said she was afraid of live, so i haven't tried....which if i did, i would probably still go for a bop on the head first!

---

BP's also starve to death in the wild, get eaten by birds of prey and contract various parasites from the corpses they eat in the wild. I am not at all convinced by the "Well in the wild" argument. So I will just ignore this part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "

---

Please explain to me how your snake is any different from one caught in the wild. There is no selection for behavior going on that I can see in the BP trade. So I say again you are not reading that critically. The part about being accustomed to human provision and control has to be as a result of human selective breeding over time. Compare a dog to a wolf, and likewise I can provide a long list of domestic animals that look and act nothing like their wild ancestors. Conversely people can and do pass off wild BP as captive bred all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control..

---

No I don't agree at all and it is just your opinion. You first premise is false and so your entire argument is flawed. People do not, did not, and from what I can tell won't select BP from the wild that are more docile. I have read about and watched videos of BP being captured in the wild. I have never seen any selection for temperament and I have not heard anyone suggesting that their is such selection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

..even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually :)
He's actually the most violent dude i have besides my carpet python.
His name is "Bitey" LOL
He snatches his food, and will protect it (not just look over it for a good place to start eating), and he will CHARGE you, and try to chase you away if you come near. That's funny too, but i really try to stay away from him when he's eating *lol* My other 3 bps, and my other many snakes act nothing like this.
But the brat still waits for his human go give him water!
That is, to me, a clear sign of domestication, even at a small level.

---

All you have demonstrated with your story is an ability to learn patterns. This is not a sign of domestication. A tiger in a zoo might learn when feeding time is, its not domesticated. A gorilla can be taught sign language. Still not domesticated. If you think that your snake waiting for water is a sign of domestication then you don't understand what domestication is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Anyway, i don't think i can change anyone's opinion. I don't really like the idea of feeding live...but i understand the need in CERTAIN cases. As for people with like 60 snakes, i feel it's just lazy. No offense, but really...we cage them, provide for them, and they could not survive in captivity without us...so why wouldn't we at least WATCH to make sure they are not hurt? Of course their scales provide protection...that's how they were designed. They are more durable than our skin...which is OUR protection..but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable or like armor or something. Jeez, These are two of my rescue snakes.

---

Ok what you are doing here is called constructing a straw man. Of course they can't survive in captivity without us. Mice will virtually never climb into a tank that a snake can't get out of. The prevailing wisdom on this forum is that if you feed live you watch the feeding. You will see advice all over this forum saying you should not feed live unattended. In fact their scales are like armor. We as humans designed armor to mimic reptiles scales. No one said they were invulnerable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Jasper has a huge scar along his underside from the kick of a rabbit...not to mention numerous bite marks and messed up scales from rats.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_233138.jpg
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_233044.jpg

---

No respected member of this forum would feed a rabbit capable of doing that to their BP. This is not a picture of what happens when you feed live.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Ribs (so called because he was 1.5lbs at 4 feet in length and almost dead from dehydration and starvation) has a scarred over nostril...though you can't see it very well here, though you can see the tail scar.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_224209.jpg
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/...212_224229.jpg

---

Dehydration and starvation are not from feeding live. The scars are sad but once again if they came from feeding live its certainly not indicative of all keepers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Just really unnecessary. If we don't have the time to watch our animals and make sure they are safe and not getting "Blemmishes" then we just shouldn't own the animal. If we have so many we can't make the time? Same thing.

These may be extreme cases...though I have seen and heard of worse...but WHY risk it? Why? Because it's easier for us, or we're lazy? *snort* that's just wrong.

I am fine with live if you beat it on the head, and WATCH your snake. Whatever is cheaper for you, fine, but i cringe when i hear all these people saying they have double figure #'s of snakes and they just throw food in there.

---

You are upset with your idea of feeding live. It doesn't match the reality of most snake keepers. I could give you thousands of pictures of people who have died horribly in car accidents. Non of that is a solid argument against driving. Crossing the road can go horribly wrong too but you aren't a bad parent for letting your kids do it. Sure if you let them cross at a young age without supervisions but you would have to witness that to condemn that person. You can't just judge people without knowing the details. Its just not that simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KingPythons

I just hope ppl don't use bowls or cups to put the rat to thaw in. That's gross. Just dead animals in peoples fridge besides pork, chicken etc is gross lol. Just saying.

---

LOL.. yeah a chopped up dead cow, chicken or pig is fine but a mouse....GROSS. Come on lets all be adults here its just a dead mouse. I will literally lick my fingers after eating dead chicken how gross is this really.

The only reason that I feed live to some of my snakes is they refuse to eat anything other than live. I try my best to switch them, but I will not starve my snakes just because they refuse to take f/t.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Little brats *lol* and understood. Case by case is of course realistic.

Indeed! I just hope people realize that. I just got the impression that people just throw one in, and that's it. Until next feeding. They're too busy to worry about it, kind of thing. I really hope that's not the case for anyone.

That is a fact! I must admit, not too long ago I heard of this happening to a snake. I got all paranoid. Unless i sit there pulling rat teeth though, what am I going to do about it? I can clip toenails...or at least in our case we soak our meals until they thaw, and then warm, so i'm sure the keratin in then nails soften...so i don't usually cut them down. But teeth...if they're going to get hurt sometimes, they just are. I try to mother and protect them as much as i can, though *lol*

Yup. But, that doesn't mean i'm not going to keep trying, or not bop it in the head, or freeze it if it dies, and try to refeed anyway *lol* I guess i just want to hear that it's worth the time, for people to take that little extra step. I know i'm not going to change anyone's mind, but maybe they'll just think about things a little differently sometimes. Hey, prevention is the first cure.



LOL That is true. I do realize i'm putting extreme cases out there. My problem is not even really live food...it's the attitude, and lack of enthusiasim i see sometimes.

Anyway...One last question I forgot about! If you feed live...what do you do about fleas?? I'm going to be treating a snake next week (after the good'ol paycheck) for tapeworms. I've read that they get these, from the fleas ingested along with live food.

Thoughts?

---

If the rats you are feeding have FLEAS...omg, find a different supplier! That's horrifying! (Not to mention dangerous).
I would never go NEAR anyone who gave me a rat with fleas on it, and I certainly wouldn't feed it to my snakes.

Lice and mites are also not acceptable. Feeders should be healthy and free of parasites! If they aren't, then the rodent breeder is doing something VERY wrong. Sniffles from myco are one thing, but fleas? Really?

By the way, I see the 'scales like armor' comment, a lot. Their scales are not like armor, they are like your fingernails, only significantly thinner. They protect from minor scratches, and that's all. They will protect a snake from being scratched by a kicking rodent, but rat and mouse teeth will go through them like butter, so don't believe that offers significant protection, lol.
Seriously, rats CAN chew through concrete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

I do concede that perhaps BPs are not fully domesticated, as i did look it up and they are constantly imported (which i think is ridiculous and unnecessary). You are right in saying they were chosen as a great pet because they are mostly naturally docile...
Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "

I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control....even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually :)

---

Ball Pythons, or any snake for the matter, are not domesticated animals. I am an animal biologist pre-vet. I think you misunderstand the wiki definition (and wiki isn't always correct). Domestication is selective breeding for human use and manipulation - to control an animal or plant's behavior and/or to make them dependent on humans for survival. In plants, different parts of a plant are modified for food. For example, a broccoli is a modified flower that was selectively bred. A potato is a modified stem. People have done the same to animals. Animals have had their behaviors modified for human use. (Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.) Dogs have been selectively bred from wolves to do certain duties such as herding, retrieving, & guarding. Some dogs, such as terriers, are bred to kill rats. But do they know that the rats are a source of food? Probably not. They were bred to kill vermin, not eat them. (I'm sure there are exceptions). A dog in a city setting can survive off trash and scavenging. You throw that same dog into a remote wilderness, and the chances of survival are low because they are dependent on humans.

Another example, ferrets were originally domesticated from European Polecats to chase and kill rabbits and rodents. Ferreting in the US is illegal and they are now America's #3 pet after cats and dogs. They are also highly dependent on humans for survival. Not just us giving water or pouring kibble into a bowl. Throw a ferret outside and what will they do? They'll die in a matter of days. They don't know how to track prey or build a shelter. Many ferrets don't even know a mouse is a source of food unless specifically trained. The chances of a domestic ferret finding a mouse out in the wild is close to zero. The chances of it walking into someone's house is greater. They are highly dependent on humans because they don't know how to survive naturally.

I think this is the part you misunderstand. Ball pythons retain their natural instincts from the moment they hatch. Many domesticated animals do not unless under extreme circumstances that make an animal go feral. (note: feral is not the same as stray and does take multiple generations to reach). Just because we take out a snake's water dish and don't throw a rat into their tub does NOT mean they naturally rely on humans. They rely on humans because they're forced to, not because they don't know how to survive w/o aide. You return a BP(even those that are captive hatched) to Africa, and the chances of their survival is significantly higher than a true domesticated animal returning to the wild.


Also, checking a water bowl is an acclimation, not adaptation to humans or domestication. Acclimation happens w/i an organism's life. Adaptation occurs over many generations.

After haveing uneaten rats escape and scare the crap out of me when I found them later, I switched to ft. Snakes wouldn't eat for months, never gave them a choice, once they got hungry enough they took them. Never looked back, I order 100+ at a time keep them in a cooler(I like to think it keeps the other food smells off) in a big freezer. So for 10 years now they have been on nothing but ft.

egapal, i was agreeing with you on most of the things, and trying to debate on the others. You're acting really argumentative and i think taking what i'm saying the wrong way.


BTW what is your definition of domesticated? I copy/pasted the actual definition, so please do, let's see what you come up with. That is why i said you can't argue with it...it IS a fact because that is what the word means. *rolls eyes*

you also said previously that ball pythons were naturally docile. then you just said that they aren't and went on a fussy paragraph to me about how they have, and have never been chosen from the wild because they are docile. *lol* you are really going at it.

ALso, in this thread people have said they throw rats or mice in the cages or tubs, and walk away for hours. I don't know why you're defending the site as if i'm attacking it and saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying i know i won't get people to not feed live, but they can at least watch to make sure the snakes are okay.

also, you can freeze and unfreeze a steak all you want. has nothing to do with the fact that ball pythons will eat dead animals in the wild. has nothing to do with the fact that freezing does kill a lot of bacteria, so that even though the frozen/thawd mouse might stink, and be decaying, it can still be processed by the snake's body. True that wild snakes can and will and may get sick from eating dead animals. But they DO eat them. i don't know why you said i was trying to convince you otherwise or whatever it was you said you couldn't be convinced of. I actually clearly said that though i didn't like it, you should feed your snake what it will eat *shrug*

THe single only thing i have been trying to convince anyone of was that they should watch their snakes when there is live prey in the bin with them so that they don't get hurt, because they CAN get hurt.
Other than that, i had my question as to WHY people feed live, answered. People worry about cost, and they find it easier to feed live.
Since finding that out, all i said was that i find it cheaper to feed thawed.
In response, someone else said THEY found it more expensive to throw out uneaten food...to which i said, i have not found it more expensive. That i had only thrown out food a few times. That i DO refreeze, and my snakes are and do NOT get sick.

Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.

If the food item does start to stink, and break down, that bacteria is NOT bad for the snake.
And, snakes in the wild DO consume rotten or rotting food. Yes those snakes do get sick. There are also other parasites and bacteria working on the wild rotted food item.
ANyway, i was bringing up the "in the wild" thing because....it's just a fact i am using to show you that eating dead food in captivity is not just a captive thing, it is also practiced in the wild. FACT.

WHew...lastly i posted the pics of the snakes, because i was pointing out what happens when you leave snakes unattended with live food items. I did not at all say that feeding live caused dehydration or starvation. Please reread if you think i did. I clearly was just saying what had happened along WITH a poor live feed, for these two snakes.

I thought you were cool, man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Ball Pythons, or any snake for the matter, are not domesticated animals. I am an animal biologist pre-vet. I think you misunderstand the wiki definition (and wiki isn't always correct).

---

I used Dictionary.com

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Domestication is selective breeding for human use and manipulation - to control an animal or plant's behavior and/or to make them dependent on humans for survival. ...

---

Correct. I agreed with that in my second to last post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Dogs have been selectively bred from wolves to do certain duties such as herding, retrieving, & guarding. Some dogs, such as terriers, are bred to kill rats. But do they know that the rats are a source of food? Probably not. They were bred to kill vermin, not eat them. (I'm sure there are exceptions). A dog in a city setting can survive off trash and scavenging. You throw that same dog into a remote wilderness, and the chances of survival are low because they are dependent on humans.

---

True. However, i have a couple of snakes that have been bred from lines that have been in captivity for 20 years, and one for 15 years. Both of these snakes to not strike their food. THey do not like their food to move. THey only eat dead food. If put in the wild, i believe these two snakes could not take care of themselves, and are therefore, slightly domesticated. They, and their parents, were selected as pets because they were docile, easy going, and content to be reliant on humans for their needs. They were selected, and manipulated by the breeders to continue a line of friendly and easy going f/t eating snakes, because that is what was easiest to sell as a pet. How, by your own definition of domestication, can they not be even slightly domesticated? It's a broad generalization to say that all BPs in captivity were only selected for color and not behavior. This is where i say it strays from fact, and goes into opinion (which i said was frustrating and i didn't like)...because i interpret the definition of domestication to include these two snakes in-particular, based upon their actions and reactions to stimuli.
You also said

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

(Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.)...

---

This is a generalization, and I believe that exceptions to this exist....which mean those exceptions fall into the "domesticated" definition. This is an opinion which can be tested to create fact either way it is said. it just CAN be tested, i mean.
Saying "All ball pythons are domesticated" was incorrect on my part, just as saying "all by pythons are not domesticated" was incorrect on your part. What is more accurate is to say that "It can be proven that many ball pythons do not fit into the domesticated definitions..." thus also concluding that there may be some that can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

(Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.)

---

this just frankly cannot be a truth for ALL snakes like this statement implies

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Just because we take out a snake's water dish and don't throw a rat into their tub does NOT mean they naturally rely on humans. They rely on humans because they're forced to, not because they don't know how to survive w/o aide.

---

Correct and exactly what i was trying to say...except you go on to say

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

You return a BP(even those that are captive hatched) to Africa, and the chances of their survival is significantly higher than a true domesticated animal returning to the wild.

---

which is probably true, however, there are exceptions. Even basic statistics will agree there are exceptions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Also, checking a water bowl is an acclimation, not adaptation to humans or domestication. Acclimation happens w/i an organism's life. Adaptation occurs over many generations.

---

True. I still think there are many examples of domestication, that come from a few generations of adaptation to the dependence on humans for survival, as stated by the definition of domestication.

With so many generations of snakes out there, and for as many years as they have been being bred, it cannot be a 100% true statement to say that there are not some domesticated bps. That's my point.

We prefer to feed p/k. My snakes prefer that to f/t.. and to be honest its way more convenient to bring home live rats Bonk them on the head and throw them in the feeding tub. Plus we have snakes that wont eat if temp isn't right or in its not still a little bit live.

I am a breeder and have over a hundred animals. Most of the rats i breed here, as well as ASF's and Gerbils for those picky females. I have not been successful in breeding mice, so I buy them generally. I feed only live rats that are a few weeks old, I have to feed more, but they are not aggressive. That is until a snake strikes and misses. I feed in cycles, and do average 30 or so at a time, and one type of rodent at a time. I have a full time job, so to feed f/t would literally take all of my time.

So, with that said, the scariest thing is with the mice and the smaller snakes. Mice are the most aggressive. I keep a kibble of food in to preoccupy the mouse, and keep an eye on all at the same time.

Yes, the bites that come from being coiled happen, and one has to watch for that. But I have yet to get serious injury.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

egapal, i was agreeing with you on most of the things, and trying to debate on the others. You're acting really argumentative and i think taking what i'm saying the wrong way.


BTW what is your definition of domesticated? I copy/pasted the actual definition, so please do, let's see what you come up with. That is why i said you can't argue with it...it IS a fact because that is what the word means. *rolls eyes*

---

Like I said you clearly don't understand the words you copy and pasted. You did not provide any evidence that BP became accustomed to human provisions and control through selection. 15 or 20 years is not enough time for the generations necessary for any level of domestication without massive selection the likes of which I have never even heard of with BP's. I am argumentative if you define that as disagreeing with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

you also said previously that ball pythons were naturally docile. then you just said that they aren't and went on a fussy paragraph to me about how they have, and have never been chosen from the wild because they are docile. *lol* you are really going at it.

---

I never said they aren't docile. Their natural defense mechanism in the wild is to curl up in a ball. That's not something we domesticated them to do. They do that in the wild. I am not sure what you didn't understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

ALso, in this thread people have said they throw rats or mice in the cages or tubs, and walk away for hours. I don't know why you're defending the site as if i'm attacking it and saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying i know i won't get people to not feed live, but they can at least watch to make sure the snakes are okay.

---

I am defending this site because you seam to be attacking feeding live with everything you have said. You say you know you won't get people to change but you seam to be suggesting that they should. Feeding live is not the problem. Not watching is a problem and its something that this forum has been very clear about. I agree they should watch when feeding live but its not a case of "at least." There is nothing wrong with feeding live if done correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

also, you can freeze and unfreeze a steak all you want. has nothing to do with the fact that ball pythons will eat dead animals in the wild. has nothing to do with the fact that freezing does kill a lot of bacteria, so that even though the frozen/thawd mouse might stink, and be decaying, it can still be processed by the snake's body. True that wild snakes can and will and may get sick from eating dead animals. But they DO eat them. i don't know why you said i was trying to convince you otherwise or whatever it was you said you couldn't be convinced of. I actually clearly said that though i didn't like it, you should feed your snake what it will eat *shrug*

---

You again totally missed the point. I can be convinced by good evidence backed arguments. What the animal does in the wild is not a good basis for an argument. Now if you could address the actual point I made. Would you eat a steak that you thawed left out for a few hours, froze, thawed left out for a few hours, froze and then thawed again? I would not and I will not feed a likewise treated rodent to my snakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

THe single only thing i have been trying to convince anyone of was that they should watch their snakes when there is live prey in the bin with them so that they don't get hurt, because they CAN get hurt.
Other than that, i had my question as to WHY people feed live, answered. People worry about cost, and they find it easier to feed live.
Since finding that out, all i said was that i find it cheaper to feed thawed.
In response, someone else said THEY found it more expensive to throw out uneaten food...to which i said, i have not found it more expensive. That i had only thrown out food a few times. That i DO refreeze, and my snakes are and do NOT get sick.

---

If all you got from this thread was that people feed live because its easier and they worry about cost then you have missed some really good points. Your point about watching live feedings is taken. Its also one that has been made in nearly every post concerning feeding live on this forum. As for your snakes. The fact that they do NOT get sick is not even close to the only thing that needs to be considered when making decisions on husbandry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.

---

I don't mean to be rude but you do not understand how to prove things. You are presenting a correlation that does not prove causation. Live rodents have virtually no chance of getting sick from bacteria from live prey. They do have a chance of picking up parasites that freezing does kill. If parasites were the only thing to consider we would all feed f/t. Unfortunately like I said there is more to consider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

If the food item does start to stink, and break down, that bacteria is NOT bad for the snake.
And, snakes in the wild DO consume rotten or rotting food. Yes those snakes do get sick. There are also other parasites and bacteria working on the wild rotted food item.
ANyway, i was bringing up the "in the wild" thing because....it's just a fact i am using to show you that eating dead food in captivity is not just a captive thing, it is also practiced in the wild. FACT.

---

I don't know any other way to say this. Just because something happens in the wild does not mean its good for the snake. You have to prove that its good for the snake. I won't drink milk past the sell by date. It won't make me sick I just have enough money to not bother risking it. I can also afford fresh rodents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

WHew...lastly i posted the pics of the snakes, because i was pointing out what happens when you leave snakes unattended with live food items. I did not at all say that feeding live caused dehydration or starvation. Please reread if you think i did. I clearly was just saying what had happened along WITH a poor live feed, for these two snakes.

I thought you were cool, man.

---

I am cool man. I am sure we would get along great if we met. I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. I thought you were cool too. That's why I gave you an honest detailed response. That's why I have taken the time to respond to each of the points you have made. Are you trying to say that disagreeing with you makes me not cool or is in the passion with which I speak?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

True. I still think there are many examples of domestication, that come from a few generations of adaptation to the dependence on humans for survival, as stated by the definition of domestication.

With so many generations of snakes out there, and for as many years as they have been being bred, it cannot be a 100% true statement to say that there are not some domesticated bps. That's my point.

---

Ok so in this last post of yours you are arguing with someone who is being trained in animal biology toward becoming a vet. Do you have any training, education, or research into what domestication is? Simply reading the wiki definition is not going to cut it here. You don't appear to have the background biology studies to be making the kind of arguments you are making. The point you keep missing is that it doesn't matter how many generations of animal are bread in captivity. The relevant issue is whether or not there has been a selective breeding in order to make them easier to keep in captivity that has resulted in a change in the animal from its wild counterparts. This is not the case with BPs. We have selected the ball pythons that get to breed based on colors and there has been little to no change in the captive animals behavior vs the wild. This is further proven by the constant influx of wild BPs to the trade. Even if there has been some change it doesn't prove your point. The changes have to be fairly drastic, bordering on or flat out leading to speciation.

egapal, you said "I don't know any other way to say this. Just because something happens in the wild does not mean its good for the snake. You have to prove that its good for the snake. I won't drink milk past the sell by date. It won't make me sick I just have enough money to not bother risking it. I can also afford fresh rodents."

I didn't say i couldn't afford fresh rodents. I said that fresh vs f/t seems to be a problem for people due to cost. I also said i found it cheaper *shrug*

I think eating is good for the snake. I do disagree with your argumentation method.

I don't know why you wouldn't drink milk past the SELL date, if it is still good. If it's expired, it's not necessarily bad. If it GOES bad throw it it...humans also do not have the ability to fight off bacteria from "bad" food...where as ball pythons can eat food that has been dead for a long time, not refrigerated, and by our standards, spoiled. That is just a fact.


You wrote "Ok so in this last post of yours you are arguing with someone who is being trained in animal biology toward becoming a vet. Do you have any training, education, or research into what domestication is? Simply reading the wiki definition is not going to cut it here. You don't appear to have the background biology studies to be making the kind of arguments you are making. The point you keep missing is that it doesn't matter how many generations of animal are bread in captivity. The relevant issue is whether or not there has been a selective breeding in order to make them easier to keep in captivity that has resulted in a change in the animal from its wild counterparts. This is not the case with BPs. We have selected the ball pythons that get to breed based on colors and there has been little to no change in the captive animals behavior vs the wild. This is further proven by the constant influx of wild BPs to the trade. Even if there has been some change it doesn't prove your point. The changes have to be fairly drastic, bordering on or flat out leading to speciation."

You have no idea if i have studied biology extensively and have 14 degrees, or if i'm a 13 year old kid posing as...whatever *lol* You don't know that about the person i was responding to, either. :)
And, i was specifically discussing the definition of the word domesticated, and it's application.

And it DOES matter how many generations of animal are bred in captivity...uhm...that is kind of the point. how many does it take to become domesticated...to show signs of domestication, etc. You and satomi are saying it takes too many, to have shown up already..AND that bps are NOT being selected for personality traits, that they are ONLY being selected for color. I am saying that i can PROVE otherwise, since I have two snakes from a breeder who has bred normals for 20 years, and i have two normals who are each from that breeder, who has stated that they were selected for their easy going personality and easy acceptance to captivity. I don't see how this is an argument at all *lol* I am clearly stating a fact. You can of course, choose to disagree, but since you cannot prove it, you cannot disprove it. You can concede to calling it a theory, that there are some bps out there that were selected for their "domesticated traits".
I really think if you take a second to read, and reread this last paragraph...you will see what i am saying, and understand it.

Anyone who has studied science, not even biology specifically cannot disagree with this statement. There are questions/problems just like it on the SATs.
I will concede that I have perhaps not been as clear in my previous statements, to help you understand exactly what i'm saying. I think we agree on some things, but are not seeing it that way due to the nature of our discussion...ie: on a text forum.

For instance...

You said my point about watching the snakes during a live feed was taken. Great! But then you go on to say

" I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. "


So, you say you understand. Then you for some reason go on to claim I am being dishonest in some way. That's simply not true. I closed the talk about why to feed live, quite a few posts ago. I said i had gathered reasons why people do it.
Then I posted, yes, an emotional plea, that if people are going to feed live, to watch their snakes. I don't see how this is dishonest. Please explain to me in detail how it is.
It is 100% honest. It is also, you are right, 100% emotional. BTW this thread is NOT about trying to get people to feed f/t over live. I have made that clear many times. lol

I simply asked why people do it...i wanted factual reasons.
I learned the reasons.
After learning the reasons, I simply stated that I disagree with the many statements that people feed, and then walk away from their animals.

Blah, we are going around and around here. It's not really a healthy debate when we start repeating ourselves over and over.

I see that you're set in your ways Missy:P

I fully agree with Egapal's last post.
Domestication is altering of behavior from the wild counterpart. And by behavior, I don't mean looking for a water bowl. A wild snake can return to the same stream for water too. I mean an instinctual change from the natural primitive form. A survival instinct. Snakes are truly instinctive creatures, and never really lose this trait even after years in captivity. However, you can't really say that about other domestic animals. They loose many traits, both physically and behavior wise, from their wild ancestors.

Is there a difference between wild cattle and dairy cows? Yes. They look and act different.
Is there a difference between a wolf and a bull dog? Yes. They look and act different.
Is there a difference between CBB BP and wild BP? No. They look the same and act the same, which is why many people can't tell the difference between a wild caught/bred and captive born/bred. I can't tell you how many Ghana balls Ben Siegel has, but they're up for auction weekly. So far to date, I haven't seen anybody say their Ghanas act any different from cbb bps.


Sure, some breeders may say they're breeding for personality, but the majority of ball pythons have a naturally docile disposition... Even wild caught ones. So I guess we can say almost everybody is breeding for personality?? But realistically, most people get into BP breeding for their paint jobs. And breeding a calm dog doesn't mean the puppies will be calm either...You can meet a friendly wolf w/ friendly pups. That doesn't mean they're domesticated. They're still very wild and can survive and act as they do in nature.

Here's a pretty clear example:
I think you said you have a few BPs that will not strike at certain food because it's moving???(Or something along the lines)... Well, not all animals are survivors. Natural selection. Survival of the fittest. But that's only 2(?) out of the BP population. The vast majority will most likely survive if you leave them in Africa. So as a species, they're going to survive in the wild without human aide. You take a population of golden retrievers and leave them to fend for themselves, the majority are going to die because they don't know how to survive due to the alteration from their wild forms. As a species, they're probably not going to survive.... (they would have to revert to de-evolution back into the primitive form otherwise)

Some people say domestication is a form of evolution. The domestic form is derived from the wild form. The difference between cbb and wild BP isn't significant enough to be truly independent of each other. That is why snakes are not domesticated.

If you truly believe that snakes are domesticated, then I suppose I can't really change your mind. But I'm just stating basic biological evolutionary theory.

Ok I'll just state this for myself and I'm pretty sure any other person that feeds live. We know the risks associated with feeding live. Not a single person throws rats in and leaves for hours upon hours or walks away and that's the end of it. Feeding large amounts of animals is a process. Anyone whom is feeding that many knows what they are doing. You don't get that many snakes with out knowing what you are doing. The grotesque pictures of bps being eaten alive by rodents that you see, is from a hungry dehydrated rat that in turn becomes the predator in a cage. That is from a day or more being left in a Cage or tub. No water no food. That doesn't happen in 20 min to an hour. Many people that feed large amounts of balls also prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. I feed weanlings or just a tad bit larger than a weanling. This is a hell of alot different than feeding jumbo rats. Weanlings have no idea what going on yet. They are still clueless to the world. Yes when they are constricted they will try to bite that Is instinct. Being a smaller meal for a bp they don't last long. Prey doesn't last long in my bins on feeding day anyways. Many of us that do feed live in large amounts have sort of like a sensor in our brains. Yes we put the rat in, close the bin, move to the next. But as I'm on the next bin if I hear a squeal my "sensor" goes off and I open it real quick to make sure everything is good. If I need them, my hemostats are in my back pocket, I secure the rat, and i move back on. If I don't hear the squeal I know to check back on that bin, when I'm done putting rats in. I also do my feedings in groups. It's a 10 min process per group. Anyone whom hasn't eaten by then, doesn't. This by all means again, is a PROCESS. And perhaps if you knew what it was like to feed 10/30/40/100 balls you would understand. You asked for the reasons folks feed live. You got them. You didn't ask for our feeding practices.
This doesn't make people that feed live lazy at all. Having that many animals you have to Weigh your options. Am I going to spend 4 hours or more, feeding, heating up rats over and over with the hair dryer, doing the zombie dance? Or am I going to spend an hour feeding bc i have to spend the other three hours cleaning bins. Or spraying bins, filling water bowls. Etc.
What choice would you make if you had 60 hungry snakes, worked a full time job, had to keep everyone clean, etc? Would you still go for the zombie dance? Even if it cut in to bin cleaning time, or job time, kids time etc... Or does it seem like a different situation then?
I guess what I'm saying with all of this is everyone has their reasons for feeding how and what they do. A bit
More comes into play than just being lazy or not lazy when you have a large collection. But I know for a fact that 99.9% of folks on this site that do feed live know what precautions to take. As I said before BOTH live and ft have their risks. Not either one is safer than the other if the person is uneducated about the risks associated with each.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

Ok I'll just state this for myself and I'm pretty sure any other person that feeds live. We know the risks associated with feeding live. Not a single person throws rats in and leaves for hours upon hours or walks away and that's the end of it. Feeding large amounts of animals is a process. Anyone whom is feeding that many knows what they are doing. You don't get that many snakes with out knowing what you are doing. The grotesque pictures of bps being eaten alive by rodents that you see, is from a hungry dehydrated rat that in turn becomes the predator in a cage. That is from a day or more being left in a Cage or tub. No water no food. That doesn't happen in 20 min to an hour. Many people that feed large amounts of balls also prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. I feed weanlings or just a tad bit larger than a weanling. This is a hell of alot different than feeding jumbo rats. Weanlings have no idea what going on yet. They are still clueless to the world. Yes when they are constricted they will try to bite that Is instinct. Being a smaller meal for a bp they don't last long. Prey doesn't last long in my bins on feeding day anyways. Many of us that do feed live in large amounts have sort of like a sensor in our brains. Yes we put the rat in, close the bin, move to the next. But as I'm on the next bin if I hear a squeal my "sensor" goes off and I open it real quick to make sure everything is good. If I need them, my hemostats are in my back pocket, I secure the rat, and i move back on. If I don't hear the squeal I know to check back on that bin, when I'm done putting rats in. I also do my feedings in groups. It's a 10 min process per group. Anyone whom hasn't eaten by then, doesn't. This by all means again, is a PROCESS. And perhaps if you knew what it was like to feed 10/30/40/100 balls you would understand. You asked for the reasons folks feed live. You got them. You didn't ask for our feeding practices.
This doesn't make people that feed live lazy at all. Having that many animals you have to Weigh your options. Am I going to spend 4 hours or more, feeding, heating up rats over and over with the hair dryer, doing the zombie dance? Or am I going to spend an hour feeding bc i have to spend the other three hours cleaning bins. Or spraying bins, filling water bowls. Etc.
What choice would you make if you had 60 hungry snakes, worked a full time job, had to keep everyone clean, etc? Would you still go for the zombie dance? Even if it cut in to bin cleaning time, or job time, kids time etc... Or does it seem like a different situation then?
I guess what I'm saying with all of this is everyone has their reasons for feeding how and what they do. A bit
More comes into play than just being lazy or not lazy when you have a large collection. But I know for a fact that 99.9% of folks on this site that do feed live know what precautions to take. As I said before BOTH live and ft have their risks. Not either one is safer than the other if the person is uneducated about the risks associated with each.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

---

Well said.

I agree w/ everything stated above.
And for the record, I too feed weanlings who are practically helpless. So no damage done to the snakes. (And not sure why someone would feed a rabbit to a BP.....that's trouble ready to happen)

So should I.feed live or f-t

I feed live because :

a) I breed my own rats
b) BPs more readily take to live
c) It seems silly to prekill when my BPs prefer live
d) Never have had a serious injury

Now, I do watch them feed with a pair of hemostats and intervene if i have to. I figure in the wild they take the odd bite or two and i care for any minor bite in captivity..

I am going to stick to the key points.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

And it DOES matter how many generations of animal are bred in captivity...uhm...that is kind of the point. how many does it take to become domesticated...to show signs of domestication, etc. You and satomi are saying it takes too many, to have shown up already..AND that bps are NOT being selected for personality traits, that they are ONLY being selected for color. I am saying that i can PROVE otherwise, since I have two snakes from a breeder who has bred normals for 20 years, and i have two normals who are each from that breeder, who has stated that they were selected for their easy going personality and easy acceptance to captivity. I don't see how this is an argument at all *lol* I am clearly stating a fact. You can of course, choose to disagree, but since you cannot prove it, you cannot disprove it. You can concede to calling it a theory, that there are some bps out there that were selected for their "domesticated traits".

I really think if you take a second to read, and reread this last paragraph...you will see what i am saying, and understand it.

---

You do not understand domestication. Ok you have two snakes from someone who has been breeding normals for 20 years. Lets assume the person started with 100 adult normal females (they probably started with 1). Lets further assume that they chose the tamest 10% to breed, that's called selecting for a trait (Real domestication studies have been done starting with 10s of thousands of animals and only breeding the top 1%). Lets assume that they were all paired with the tamest male they could find, they all took, and all produced an average of 10 eggs 50/50 male and female.(odds of this happening are super low) So 2 years later lets assume all 50 females are old enough to breed and again they choose the tamest 10 to breed and repeat with the same results. 20 years later you have at best 10 generations. That's enough to start to see changes assuming your breeder was as good as the Russians who worked with the foxes. In reality you probably got 7 generations or less and they probably started with a hand full of snakes which means they didn't do a drastic enough selection process to see change. Furthermore you are demonstrating that you don't know what an argument, fact, or theory are. It may be a fact that the people who sold you the snakes said they were from a long line of domestication efforts but you certainly haven't proven that is the case. How many animals did they start with? What percentage did they breed. What percentage of those were selected to breed. Did they take precautions to avoid inbreeding. Even if they did all of this they would still have to demonstrate that the snakes they have breed are in some way different from wild snakes. You haven't proven anything. You have said some stuff. A theory is an explanation of why the facts are what they are. You haven't presented a theory. You have presented an understanding of what domestication is that differs widely from the excepted definition. Once again there is much more to domestication than you have read so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

Anyone who has studied science, not even biology specifically cannot disagree with this statement. There are questions/problems just like it on the SATs.
I will concede that I have perhaps not been as clear in my previous statements, to help you understand exactly what i'm saying. I think we agree on some things, but are not seeing it that way due to the nature of our discussion...ie: on a text forum.

For instance...

You said my point about watching the snakes during a live feed was taken. Great! But then you go on to say

" I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. "


So, you say you understand. Then you for some reason go on to claim I am being dishonest in some way. That's simply not true. I closed the talk about why to feed live, quite a few posts ago. I said i had gathered reasons why people do it.
Then I posted, yes, an emotional plea, that if people are going to feed live, to watch their snakes. I don't see how this is dishonest. Please explain to me in detail how it is.

---

Its dishonest because your example does not come even close to the norm. Even the people on this forum who don't watch their snakes while they are feeding live don't feed their BP RABBITS.

You are trying to make a point about what we all do, and to make that point you show a snake that was injured from something that non of us do. That's what makes it dishonest.

The second picture is from a snake that kinda has a small scar. That doesn't even make a point. I am not sure why you showed that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

It is 100% honest. It is also, you are right, 100% emotional. BTW this thread is NOT about trying to get people to feed f/t over live. I have made that clear many times. lol

I simply asked why people do it...i wanted factual reasons.
I learned the reasons.
After learning the reasons, I simply stated that I disagree with the many statements that people feed, and then walk away from their animals.

Blah, we are going around and around here. It's not really a healthy debate when we start repeating ourselves over and over.

---

I read the whole thread. There might have been one person who said they fed live and walked away. You don't know what that person was feeding. If the person was feeding rat fuzzies there is no danger in walking away and not watching. This is my whole point. Who are you talking too. You appear to be trying to make a point about feeding live vs f/t. All of your actions indicated that. If you weren't I would expect you to ask questions about some of the great points people have made. Instead you fixate on the feeding unattended and make an emotional plea about that. What I am saying is that I have been on this forum a while and the veterans will all tell you not to feed live unattended. I say this again because you don't seam to acknowledge any points that anyone has made.

Wow alot of arguments in here lol

anyways...

I personally feed my snakes f/t, its just more convient for me that way. I stock up on f/t at reptile expos for really cheap and im set. Its better than keeping stinky mice and rats around the house lol :P


and for the record i agree with missy :gj:

when i read the first post,i thought the thread starter honestly want to hear about other people's opinion about feeding live food..but after 8 pages,its quite disgusting to see his response towards others..he try to correct everyone like he's the only one has the right opinion even some people here already gave some fact..im sorry if i offended you.

For me,feeding live has pros and cons..but i still prefer live one..feeding live means fresh with protein,vitamins and nutrient..maybe some people disagree with my statement,but as far as i do nutritional/protein/antioxidant test to the sample in the lab,its quite difficult to get good result of nutrient content from sample which frozen for quite long time.that is why we always do it on fresh sample..It will be even worst if the food refreeze so many times like you did and i think it is really selfish behavior.if you ever taste the raw meat,or raw fish,its really different between fresh and frozen..It is different not because nothing change,but a lot of thing already changed..And dont forget,the live food not always carrying bad germs like you said,but it always bring good bacteria for BP's digestive system..maybe for BP,we didnt see much different between feeding live and fresh(i can see it), but for some snake,feeding live means doesn't have much problem with digestion process.if my corn always regurgitate,one of the solution is give live feeder.

i feed my snake both pre kill and lives..and for lives one,i dont have any problem after so many years..the worst one only scratch..I believe anyone here who feed them live know the risk and know how to overcome it..and I DID NOT FEED THEM RABBIT or inappropriate size of food..

I feed live because F/T is "boring"

I have my tweezers ready to prevent bites.

I feed live and f/t to my snakes. I've been keeping snakes now for 5 years. I keep over 30 snakes right now and have plans to expand my collection.

Firstly, I feed the majority of my snakes f/t. This is out of convienence only. I would much prefer to feed live, but if I were to feed live I would want to breed my own (because the sources of live rodents around are not that great...parasites...ill rodents...malnourished) and I simply do not have the room to do so. Many of my snakes have no problem switching from live to f/t from one feeding to the next. They simply do not care. However, I do have a few snakes that simply refuse f/t. They will starve themselves for months until they get a live prey item. Of course, I have no problem feeding live, so this is not a problem for me.

When I feed live, I am very careful with each feeding. I supervise each and every live feeding, tongs in hand, ready to intervene should the snake strike wrong. If the snake does not strike within a few minutes, I pull the rodent and leave the snake for the next feeding day.

In my 5 years of keeping snakes I have only one snake that has ever become injured. It was a very small bite wound on my snow corn snake from a live mouse. Within a few sheds you wouldn't even know she'd ever been bitten and it certainly has not scared her into not eating. She's an eating machine and will take down any prey item you offer, live or dead.

Also, I NEVER stun a rodent. I find this to be a cruel practice. It can also be dangerous to your snake. If you stun a prey item and it ends up coming to while in a tub with your snake, the prey item will more than likely be very frightened and more aggressive. You would be too if someone knocked you senseless. I used to stun mice for my snakes when they were babies. That was no problem. The first time I ever tried to stun a rat, I almost cried. The poor thing went into seizures. I will never again stun an animal. Either kill it and offer it p/k, buy f/t, or feed live. There is NO reason you should have to stun a prey item.

I feed live.
1.) I cant get mine to take f/t.
2.) Its easier for me to go by the store and buy mice than having to thaw out frozen rats, warm them up, and dangle them around for my snakes to eat them.
3.) You hear it with nutritionists all the time that frozen foods loose a lot of their nutrients, its probably the same with mice right?


I've been stabbed in the roof of my mouth so many times from chips and what not, but it doesnt scare me away from eating them lol. I also closely supervise feeding time with pliars in hand ready to help. I wait untill the snake is completely done strangling and begins to eat before I put the lid back on.

Sometimes if my pythons are on a self-imposed fast they will take live when they won't take f/t.

As an example-- I have a 1500gm pastel yb. I am not breeding Marilyn this season because she is a late '10 and even though she is large enough to breed and doing all of the big-girl things like fasting and bowl wrapping I do not want to breed her this young. Probably next year.

I tried for the last couple of weeks to get her to eat f//t, which she usually will. I have a very happy possum because she has been refusing. Today she refused a third time. I offered her a live rat and she took it within seconds.

Now, it wouldn't kill Marilyn not to eat for another month or so, but I want her to eat. I want her to be a good size and weight for next fall when I do allow her to breed. So she's getting live until she accepts f/t. I'm not worried about her getting bitten by a rat either. Marilyn is quite the efficient ratter. They seldom get out more than one squeal when she nabs them.

Ok I'm comin in at the butt end of this snake. I only read the first and last page of the thread and haven't seen this argument at all. It is their nature. In the wild snakes hunt and kill and yes, they can get hurt in the process, but they still go on. In my opinion, when keeping any exotic animal, it is the owners responsibility to make their habitat as close to natural as possible, including their feed. Some people might say "well that's why animals bite and attack" and blah blah blah. But its their nature! Why do you like snakes? For me its because they're facinating animals by nature, so why try to ruin that!? I am not opposed to frozen thawed if my snakes would take it I would get it. Most concern is the rat/mouse biting. Like I said it hapens in the wild and they do ok. But we can take em to a vet if a bite or scratch is too serious. If your snake takes f/t more power t you that's great I'm not opposed to that. But if your slithery friend prefers a like rat then givethem that. Its the thrill of thehunt!! Let nature take its course, let them do what comes naturally to them. :gj:

On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....

My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.

My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food.

If done responsibly, live can be no more dangerous than feeding f/t. One could argue that nutrient levels can be affected by the freezing process. Some argue that taurine deteriorates after a while. F/T that you buy could have been spoiled and simply re-frozen and you end up feeding a spoiled prey item. (I've bought one of those. Thawed it out and it smelled like it had been decomposing for quite a while before it was re-frozen) I do not ever recommend re-freezing something that has been completely thawed out. If it is not completely thawed then re-freezing is okay, but never when its already thawed. I don't do that with my ferrets and I don't do that with my snakes. Whole prey is generally okay to be left out for 12 hours or so without spoilage. Sometimes I will pull my rats to thaw during the day while I'm working and feed when I get home. I never have a problem, but once I know it is fully thawed, I never leave it for more than a few hours before pulling it out of a tub and discarding it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....

My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.

My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food.

If done responsibly, live can be no more dangerous than feeding f/t. One could argue that nutrient levels can be affected by the freezing process. Some argue that taurine deteriorates after a while. F/T that you buy could have been spoiled and simply re-frozen and you end up feeding a spoiled prey item. (I've bought one of those. Thawed it out and it smelled like it had been decomposing for quite a while before it was re-frozen) I do not ever recommend re-freezing something that has been completely thawed out. If it is not completely thawed then re-freezing is okay, but never when its already thawed. I don't do that with my ferrets and I don't do that with my snakes. Whole prey is generally okay to be left out for 12 hours or so without spoilage. Sometimes I will pull my rats to thaw during the day while I'm working and feed when I get home. I never have a problem, but once I know it is fully thawed, I never leave it for more than a few hours before pulling it out of a tub and discarding it.

---

You make an excellent point, but I just wanted to point out that ball pythons are not domesticated.

The whole "f/t vs live" argument is the most over-analyzed bp subject ever...feed them what they'll eat and what is convenient for you...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missy King

ANYway...the main thing i had wanted to comment on was rabernet, who said "I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them."

I'll just be blunt here and ask why you think it's okay that your other snakes are allowed blemishes, or scratches, or worse...but your favorite isn't. That is like admitting that yes, they DO get hurt from live food...but you have one that is more worthy of not getting hurt.
Just weird.

---

I missed this earlier, but I'll just be blunt here and say that the snakes with melanin do NOT have blemishes, because the melanin doesn't show them. You're making an assumption that the albino is my favorite animal in my collection, and he's not.

Blemishes are not injuries. I get scratched all the time in my daily life and things that I do, but I do not consider minor scratches to be injuries, nor life threatening. In fact, I barely notice them - they are simply cosmetic. I am feeding f/t to that particular snake for cosmetic reasons only - not for safety, or because he's a favored snake in any way.

You chose to pick one part of my post out, without acknowledging the extremely low risk of injury in my collection from feeding live. Using my own, real life experiences, with over 15K live feedings, I have not ONCE had any rodent maim or scar a single snake in my collection.

Feed F/T if that's what you prefer, but do NOT sit in judgement of those who prefer feeding live prey to their collections, for whatever their reason may be. In fact, no one owes you any explanation as to why they came to the choice that they cam to.

Your horse appears to be pretty high and your sword rather mighty.