Breeding Bumble Bee To Bumble Bee

Was reading this thread and it is not confirmed yet but this may be a super spider. May need to breed her a few more times to be 100% certain if the current outcome is 4 spiders and 4 Bees or it was just luck of the draw. Visually may be identical to a typical spider but genetically will produce all spider offspring. :confused:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ble-Bee-Clutch

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Originally Posted by AGoldReptiles

Mike, Funny how you make a comment like this after posting this:
you need to brush up on your genetics.

Now to clarify this:
I you read closely I said DOMINATE traits. There seems to be two types of "granite".
Dominate, which to my knowledge have not proven to have a homozygous form. If you know of a line of DOMINATE granite that has proven to have a homozygous form, please share.
Then there are CO-DOMINATE (Incomplete Dominate) Granites in which there have been proven homozygous forms (super).
You will have to understand the difference between Dominate and Co-Dominate(Incomplete Dominate) .

FYI I have done a fair amount of research on "granites". I am actually working on my own "granite" project.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Let me add something here. If a snake has a homozygous for and does not express traits in the heterozygous form it is a simple recessive. If it expresses traits in it's heterozygous form it is a codom. Due to the fact a spider expresses traits and you are saying it is still possible to have a homozygous form then what option is left? You guys should keep all of this super spider talk for one of the thread started for it though.

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i heard if you breed spider X spider some babies will die or be weak is that true? if so i wouldnt breed bee

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Originally Posted by melly911

i heard if you breed spider X spider some babies will die or be weak is that true? if so i wouldnt breed bee

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That could be true. As far as there being no super spiders because two spider genes is fatal, well that's just a theory.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

You totally contradict yourself here. First you say it's not called a super spider, second you say its possible for a homozygous form. If it has a homozygous form it is a codom, therefor the homozygous form would be a super. All of this is exactly why I made the troll post a page or two back saying "oh snap, there is super spider talk in this thread". This could go on forever.

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A super spider implies codominance. Since spider is dominant, I'm not contradicting myself.
Genetically, yes - it is possible for a homozygous form, but that does not make it what we know as a "super" because it is dominant and not codominant.

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Originally Posted by AGoldReptiles

I never said that a homozygous spider wasnt possible. I said that it doesnt exist, and until someone PROVES otherwise that statement is correct.
What more evidence and research would you like? The spider has been around since 1999 and there has never been a PROVEN homozygous spider.


NERD says that it is not lethal. Until someone PROVES otherwise I believe them. Why would they have to prove that it isnt when there is no evidence to prove that there is a lethal homozygous form.
How many breeding have there been? How many is enough?

I can think of three dominate traits off the top off my head. Spider,Pinstripe,and Granite. None of which have proven to have a homozygous form . Yet alone a homozygous that is lethal.

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First of all, it's dominant not dominate. Sorry, it just bothers me.

NERD, with all due respect to them, doesn't know everything. I still agree that until it is proven, we can't say it's lethal and I'm pretty sure that's what I already said. But either way there is no proof for one or the other.
There aren't really that many documented breedings out there of spider x spider to be conclusive.

I don't really understand your logic, however, as you say there is no existence of a homozygous spider but that there is no lethality proven either. Okay, so I get that you are saying neither is proven to exist, but you are playing both sides of the fence here. And there have been cases to where people have thought they had a homozygous pinstripe, but like you said - not proven genetically. There really is no argument here, but saying "it doesn't exist" is a little ignorant. We don't know that.

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Originally Posted by evan385

That could be true. As far as there being no super spiders because two spider genes is fatal, well that's just a theory.

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Again, super is a term associated with codominance.
You are contradicting yourself though, as being weak and dying after birth is technically FATAL. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by BPNoobie

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=289805

Shame I won't have the money til tax time was thinking about getting the male and then next tax year buying a couple of ready to breed female bees after seeing this post

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Did you read my post about why its better to have a female pastel axanthic and get male bee????

Yes I did read it, but I've realized it wouldn't bother me to buy 2-3 female bees and wait a year or so to get a male. After all they'll still be pets until they're ready to breed. Also, then when I do go into my first breeding season I will have a much better outcome (hopefully) with 3 clutches. Keep my 3 original females and pastel axanthic breed them again the following year by then the new bees will be ready that are het axanthic and we'll see where it goes from there.

They won't be ready. They will hatch in the spring and then you'll start pairing in the fall. You'll have to wait another year until they are 18 months and they may not even go then. Males would be ready by breeding season. But hey if you want to extend your breeding plans that far, go ahead!

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Originally Posted by BPNoobie

Yes I did read it, but I've realized it wouldn't bother me to buy 2-3 female bees and wait a year or so to get a male. After all they'll still be pets until they're ready to breed.

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I didn't mean they would be ready in a year, I just meant that after a year I would buy a male that would likely be a hatchling that way by 18mo. - 24mo. hopefully the male and 3 females would be ready.

No I don't mind extending the plans gives me lots of time to build a good size rack, and also to learn more about genetics for following projects (this is my first one) and with hope most of the hatchlings will fund another project or two. But, like I said in the quote after all they'll still be pets until they're ready to breed.

Guess I didn't mention I started looking at normals as a pet and then ran into a page about breeding and got interested. Thanks for all the info and helpful answers you've given me though!

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Originally Posted by BPNoobie

I didn't mean they would be ready in a year, I just meant that after a year I would buy a male that would likely be a hatchling that way by 18mo. - 24mo. hopefully the male and 3 females would be ready.

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Just keep in mind, by that time bees will be a dime a dozen.... and you will be doing the same exact thing a whole lot of other people are doing (hence the reason they will be a dime a dozen).

But that is just the Morph game... I suggest you try thinking outside the box or don't bother. Instead of buying 3 female bumble bees, use that same money to buy 1 female who's babies will still be worth something when she makes them.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Just keep in mind, by that time bees will be a dime a dozen.... and you will be doing the same exact thing a whole lot of other people are doing (hence the reason they will be a dime a dozen).

But that is just the Morph game... I suggest you try thinking outside the box or don't bother. Instead of buying 3 female bumble bees, use that same money to buy 1 female who's babies will still be worth something when she makes them.

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I agree, you have to think ahead of the game. Bee's will be more than played out in a couple of years..i've already seen females as low as 350. bee combos will be less saturated but definitely more common than say now. I would suggest since you are getting into axanthic as well, adding in another gene besides just the super pastel like throw pastave het axanthic or firefly het axanthic. u could still get your killer axanthics but you could also get another gene in there, which would put you in a better position as far as keeping up with the crew.

If an Axanthic Killerbee was my goal and not spending a ton is a concern, my first purchase would be a....

Pastel het Axanthic female (2 would be better)


The advantage here is that this snake can actually produce a killerbee axanthic (paired with a bee axanthic or bee het axanthic) so your time line is decreased.

The next purchase would be an axanthic spider male (price should be down a bunch by the time your pastel het axanthic females are up to breeding size).

The Spider Axanthic X Pastel Het Axanthic gives you your shot at Axanthic Bees, Bee Het Axanthic (as well as Pastel Axanthic females to hold back to eventually replace mom). Breed your Axanthic Bee male (or Bee Het Axanthic male) back to mom to have a shot at Axanthic Killerbees.

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Originally Posted by JayCee

If an Axanthic Killerbee was my goal and not spending a ton is a concern, my first purchase would be a....

Pastel het Axanthic female (2 would be better)


The advantage here is that this snake can actually produce a killerbee axanthic (paired with a bee axanthic or bee het axanthic) so your time line is decreased.

The next purchase would be an axanthic spider male (price should be down a bunch by the time your pastel het axanthic females are up to breeding size).

The Spider Axanthic X Pastel Het Axanthic gives you your shot at Axanthic Bees, Bee Het Axanthic (as well as Pastel Axanthic females to hold back to eventually replace mom). Breed your Axanthic Bee male (or Bee Het Axanthic male) back to mom to have a shot at Axanthic Killerbees.

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Good idea.