This is getting RIDICULOUS! Lesser pastel for $400 shipped?!

I know some one whom spend 10K on a spider it proved to be a poor breeder and he figures that one snake has covered its meals and power but has not touched much of the 10K. It is quite likely a 200$ spider today would do better, figure you bought a breeder ready spider pair for 500$ bred then drop 8 eggs and 1300$ that covers the initial cost and food and power for all of them, next season you could make 400 or 500.

My point is if you have a bunch of money and want to see a return on it alone invest in something other than snakes it is a high risk with out good chances of large returns they do not make a good investment.

As an "outsider", a Colubrid guy, I thought I would throw my opinion in - for whatever it's worth.

I have never understood the demand and price for different morphs of snakes - especially Balls. It seems to me that when something new comes out at $10,000, eventually there are more of them and the price is down considerably in a few years.

Is it REALLY that big a deal that one snake has more yellow or white than another? Now, I LOVE the looks of Piebald Balls. But I wouldn't pay an arm and a leg for one.

And unless you are a breeder who will re-coup your investment, why buy one at all when a standard or lower cost morph will give you the same Ball Python?

Now, obviously there is a market for these designer snakes, because people are buying them, breeding them, and selling them. But for someone like me that doesn't know the difference between a Bumble Bee and a Lesser, it makes no sense.

I think Ball Pythons are wonderful animals, and the standard gold and black are gorgeous in their own rights. I suppose all the the morphs are great for people like me - it means the generic normals are cheap :D

Interesting topic, to be sure. And it goes far beyond Balls. Look how cheap Flat Screen TVs are now! Those that paid thousands for them years ago can get the same thing today for a couple hundred.

Another comment, or rather question.

If the prices were considerably less on the latest and greatest, would there not be more people purchasing them, more of them out there in the breeding pool, creating different morphs at a faster rate?

And if making money isn't the primary goal, but rather pulling out different genetics is... isn't this the best strategy?

It seems the high prices are somewhat "Elitist". But this is just one man's opinion.

As the saying goes, though, strike while the iron's hot. If people will pay for something special and unique, to be one of the "firsts", instead of waiting a while for the market to saturate and have more available at a lower cost - that is the beauty of a free market (and capitalizing on people's desire to have the latest and greatest).

Again, this goes far beyond snakes.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I know some one whom spend 10K on a spider it proved to be a poor breeder and he figures that one snake has covered its meals and power but has not touched much of the 10K. It is quite likely a 200$ spider today would do better, figure you bought a breeder ready spider pair for 500$ bred then drop 8 eggs and 1300$ that covers the initial cost and food and power for all of them, next season you could make 400 or 500.

My point is if you have a bunch of money and want to see a return on it alone invest in something other than snakes it is a high risk with out good chances of large returns they do not make a good investment.

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There are breeders who do this for a living, and do very well. Ball pythons can and do make excellent investments. Banking your success or failure on a single ball python is extremely risky, but if you spread that risk over multiple animals, the odds are in your favor.

I'm not a well known breeder right now. However, I have invested a ton of time, energy and money into my breeding business. I expect to be successful, and from the discussions I've had with people in the industry who do breed ball pythons for a living, I believe I've made sound investments. If the odds are in my favor this coming season, I could make 100% of my investment back. As long as I don't see the worst possible odds, I should have no problem making my investment back in two seasons and be nicely profitable in three.

The key is investing in good projects. Spiders, pastels, lessers, etc are very common, low cost mutations that don't make very good investments as single mutations anymore. You need to invest in higher dollar mutations and combinations. That $200 spider costs the exact same amount of time and money to feed and house as a $60,000 banana, but the offspring from the banana will be much more valuable, and thus a better return on your investment.

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Originally Posted by knox

As an "outsider", a Colubrid guy, I thought I would throw my opinion in - for whatever it's worth.

I have never understood the demand and price for different morphs of snakes - especially Balls. It seems to me that when something new comes out at $10,000, eventually there are more of them and the price is down considerably in a few years.

Is it REALLY that big a deal that one snake has more yellow or white than another? Now, I LOVE the looks of Piebald Balls. But I wouldn't pay an arm and a leg for one.

And unless you are a breeder who will re-coup your investment, why buy one at all when a standard or lower cost morph will give you the same Ball Python?

Now, obviously there is a market for these designer snakes, because people are buying them, breeding them, and selling them. But for someone like me that doesn't know the difference between a Bumble Bee and a Lesser, it makes no sense.

I think Ball Pythons are wonderful animals, and the standard gold and black are gorgeous in their own rights. I suppose all the the morphs are great for people like me - it means the generic normals are cheap :D

Interesting topic, to be sure. And it goes far beyond Balls. Look how cheap Flat Screen TVs are now! Those that paid thousands for them years ago can get the same thing today for a couple hundred.

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Comparing electronics to snakes is a bad comparison. Improvement in technology and manufacturing reduce prices on electronics. When plasmas and LCDs were brand new, they were expensive to make. Now, years later, manufacturing is streamlined and much cheaper, so the products can be sold for much cheaper. The cost of breeding snakes is affected by electricity and food costs, both of which increase over time.

I don't think there are many people who would spend a few grand on a ball python mutation as a pet. The people who spend $1000+ on a snake do so as an investment. They very likely plan on raising up that snake and breeding it and selling the offspring.

There are some people who might spend several thousand on a snake as a pet. These same type of people spend thousands or millions on a bunch of paint spread on a piece of canvas when you can likely find something similar at Wal Mart for under $50. It's all about tastes. Some people know what they like and are willing to pay premium prices for it.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Comparing electronics to snakes is a bad comparison.

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I understand, but the principle remains. Prices drop on both. The market levels out, more people are manufacturing - or breeding - the same product, competition ensues, and prices drop.

The laws of economics aren't bound by categories - for the most part.

I totally agree about your example of expensive art. The art itself is nothing special. But people project a value on it.

Same with electronics. Same with snakes. Same with cars. Same with designer purses.

Some things hold their value - art, classic cars, gold. Others lose value over time - electronics, clothes, furniture, and in this case, Ball Pythons.

We like to picture the animals as a separate category, but the principles of economics simply see them as commodities.

Remember the Beanie Baby craze? Tickle Me Elmo? The people who paid top dollar for those things lost out in the long run. UNLESS they didn't buy as investments, and they got the joy they wanted out of their purchase at the time.

Snakes are the same. If you enjoy your purchase at $5,000 now, even if the price drops in a year, then you haven't lost anything.

To me - and maybe ONLY to me- paying thousands of dollars for a snake is along the same lines. I know the prices will drop soon enough. So I would just wait out the craze and purchase what I want later.

Of course, I am not a breeder so my rules aren't the same as someone who does breed.

Ball Pythons are a bad investment?? Uh oh, I better call my accountant. I thought I was doing okay breeding ball pythons. I haven't received a paycheck in four years but I seem to be able to pay my bills and I even went to the super bowl this year. Not bad for such "bad investments". I'm not getting rich but I sure love what I do, plus I was never trying to get rich to start with...

I'm not saying it's easy but it can work and it sure is fun...

Plus, you can't put two beanie babies in the same box and have 6 new ones by summer, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

Ball Pythons are a bad investment?? Uh oh, I better call my accountant. I thought I was doing okay breeding ball pythons. I haven't received a paycheck in four years but I seem to be able to pay my bills and I even went to the super bowl this year. Not bad for such "bad investments". I'm not getting rich but I sure love what I do, plus I was never trying to get rich to start with...

I'm not saying it's easy but it can work and it sure is fun...

Plus, you can't put two beanie babies in the same box and have 6 new ones by summer, just saying.

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You are reading me wrong. I am not a breeder, so I don't have any idea who makes how much, or who turns a profit or doesn't. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other.

I am just trying to join in on the conversation and offer one more point of view on the economics side as a consumer and not a breeder. Don't mean to offend anyone at all.

And you are right, Beanie Babies don't breed.

I am ALWAYS happy for someone who is successful at what they do. And people like you provide hobbyists like me with healthy animals, not taken from the wild.

I appreciate everyone who breeds healthy (and affordable) animals. I love snakes, and without breeders like yourself the hobby would not be anywhere close to being as great as it is now.

One last thought for now.

Breeders SHOULD make a profit on their animals. Otherwise, they won't stay in business and the hobby for people like me suffers tremendously.

Profit pays electricity, buys feeders, other snakes, bedding, etc... I believe in making a profit. So in that regard, I am happy there is demand for these high price morphs. It means the snake breeders have more money to enrich the world of keeping snakes.

I, personally, would just never pay that much for a snake. But that doesn't mean I think its wrong or bad to for someone else to do so.

I hope this clears my posts up a bit.

I understand and I'm not offended. I think people see prices change each year and think that BPs and other morphs must be a bad investment. I would agree if you just put them in a fish tank to look at, but most people spending lots of money aren't doing that. If you make good decisions, work hard, and mix some luck in you can do well...

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I understand and I'm not offended. I think people see prices change each year and think that BPs and other morphs must be a bad investment. I would agree if you just put them in a fish tank to look at, but most people spending lots of money aren't doing that. If you make good decisions, work hard, and mix some luck in you can do well...

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And we "keepers only" thank you Breeders for making the investments.

We all win in the end!

I still don't think that $400. shipped, on a male Lesser Pastel is "market crashing." (Even though I personally feel they are worth more.)

It may be priced at the lower end of market pricing, but it's still here.
I have not accepted the $375. shipped offer, and have not had anybody willing to pay the $400. FIRM.
(So I will probably hold him back.)

Maybe $350. is more of a realistic market value ?
If it is not selling at $400. shipped, how can the market value be $550. - $850.

I just don't think it's right to tell people that they are "worth" more then they actually are, just to get them to "invest" in them, by purchasing our hatchlings at exaggerated prices.

Ball Pythons are not selling at the high prices that most breeders are advertising them for on the forums.
They are either sold for much lower prices to keepers that are aware of the true value aka "lowballers," or they are traded off to other breeders.

When someone advertises their animals at real life values in order to try and actually get a cash sale, the "professional" breeders label them a market crasher, and attempt to get their "friends" that purchased their animals at inflated prices as "an investment," to black list that seller.

I am not saying that Ball Pythons are a bad "investment."
If I were to sell all of my hatchlings this season, at 1/4 of their current market value, I would make a return on my "investment."

The truth is, if I were to brake even, and my hobby were to sustain itself, I would consider that "WINNING."
Most hobbies require a perpetual monetary investment, and give nothing back other then personal enjoyment.

I keep and breed my animals for personal enjoyment, and would continue to do so even if I were to run in the red.
If they pay for their own food and upkeep, that's great.
If I make some extra money as a reward for the time and work that I put into my hobby, that's just icing on the cake.

I don't do this as an alternative to actually having a job.
I do not want to invest more of my time and money into being able to, and bumping my classified ads three times per day for the next 8 months, and going back and forth haggling with buyers over my prices.
I do not enjoy that aspect of the hobby.

I have decided to list MY animals, at MY firm cash price, and be open to fair trade offers from other hobby keeper / breeders.
If they don't sell for my asking price, and no acceptable trade offers are made, I will keep them.
Otherwise, I will sell them to locals for prices that actually are RIDICULOUS, or give them away to my friends and family.
(If I sell them cheap locally, or give them to my F&F, I pick up another weekly feeder account, and expand the hobby within my circle of influence.)

I think I commented on the op's reply about investments cape fear you say you made back 100% of your original out lay IF you were only trying to MAKE MONEY that sucks. Did you account a wage for your self? I figure that reasonable is 3100 a year (3 hours a week @ 20$) I am not saying don't breed but if you are investing money and expect a return there are far better ways and much less risk. I am not talking about starting a business but as the op stated investments and return on capitol. If that is your only concern leaving money in the bank would have been a better investment. I think the OP's flaw in logic is thinking of investment. It is not an investment and likely should not be, but a passion and labour of love absolutely. How many breeders out there whom are full time and have no other income?


The example I used of the spider that breeder has over 160 animals but accounts costs per animal the spider in question is still after 10 years or so in the red, and is a long way from breaking even. This breeder started being in the black after 4 years but has never drawn much of a wage it remains a labour of love not gain.

Whoa puppy...watch it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Q2w...layer_embedded

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I think I commented on the op's reply about investments cape fear you say you made back 100% of your original out lay IF you were only trying to MAKE MONEY that sucks. Did you account a wage for your self? I figure that reasonable is 3100 a year (3 hours a week @ 20$) I am not saying don't breed but if you are investing money and expect a return there are far better ways and much less risk. I am not talking about starting a business but as the op stated investments and return on capitol. If that is your only concern leaving money in the bank would have been a better investment. I think the OP's flaw in logic is thinking of investment. It is not an investment and likely should not be, but a passion and labour of love absolutely. How many breeders out there whom are full time and have no other income?


The example I used of the spider that breeder has over 160 animals but accounts costs per animal the spider in question is still after 10 years or so in the red, and is a long way from breaking even. This breeder started being in the black after 4 years but has never drawn much of a wage it remains a labour of love not gain.

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You also mentioned that your friend's spider was a poor breeder. That can happen but what about the average, good or fantastic breeders? If his fell in that group his numbers would be different. You can't just point out a bad example and use that to "prove" that bps are a bad investment. In contrast, I wouldn't take my best breeding project and use that as a typical example either. I've done well on many projects and I know others that are doing the same or better. Again, it's not easy but can it be done. You still need to make good business decisions, diversify your investments and work.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

The example I used of the spider that breeder has over 160 animals but accounts costs per animal the spider in question is still after 10 years or so in the red, and is a long way from breaking even. This breeder started being in the black after 4 years but has never drawn much of a wage it remains a labour of love not gain.

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I think in your example it's important to add that he probably started this business at the peak in the market value for bps, and since then the economy has crashed and his return of that investment was probably very difficult to return. Not so much because he was breeding snakes, but rather the market itself took a large hit.

On the investment note, I want to add that it takes money to make money. Investing entirely in morphs that have been around a while becomes more challenging to make a return. Successful breeders use old morphs into new morphs to create new combos that are in high demand. There are expenses to care for snakes, and if I'm producing snakes that are common and really aren't in high demand, I'm not going to cover my expenses, let alone make a profit.

I know breeders who don't breed super high end morphs/combos, however they produce a large quantity of them to make a return/profit. The problem with this, is they need to find buyers, and sometimes they even sell overseas to move snakes. Or in some cases, drop the price in order to move them, like the thread topic with the pastel lesser. A breeder who focuses on high end morphs don't need to produce the quantity to make a return because their offspring will be in high demand and valued higher.

I'll end by saying, $400 for a lesser pastel is quite low, but the breeder who sold him isn't doing himself/herself any good.