Is the BP Market ready for another breeder?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_dc5

Lol you're right I woke up this morning and asked myself how I can start a huge debate on bp.net :rolleyes:. I'm not going on about this anymore. Believe what you want to believe, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

---

I'm sure none of us are losing sleep over this issue, either, unless our personal business ethics are being called into question. I believe that most of us here would never consider killing healthy animals in this way and I believe that most of us would not knowingly do business with someone who would.

That being said, it would be really easy to inadvertently drag someone's name through the mud with accusations or insinuations so unless you've actually witnessed a breeder killing off healthy offspring or a breeder has told you directly that s/he does so I would be very hesitant to say that you (general you, not you you) know a big breeder or breeders who do so.

I died a little inside when I heard about this...breaks my heart. This is absolutely horrifying and I would love to see someone put him in a freezer...

All breeders that do this should be named so no one buys from them! All you have to do is ask the breeder if they have normals for sale and if they never have normals to sell then you know something is going on!

I started this tHREAD y'ALL sHUT UP I DON'T CARE YOU FEELINGS ON KILLING SNAKES!!! GET OFF MY THREAD IF I SEE ONE MORE THREAD RESPONSE ABOUT KILLING SNAKES I WILL JUST LEAVE BP.NET FOREVER AND I THINK THIS IS A VERY EMOTIONAL TOPIC
( NOT ME BEING A BREEDER BUT CULLING) NOW YOU OUT THERE THINKING GOOD WE DON'T NEED YOU/ME HERE CAN TOTALLY STOP RIGHT NOW PLEASE ALL I WANTED IS COMMENTS ON WHETHER I SHOULD BECOME A BREEDER CUZ THE MARKET SUCKS AND JUST A FEW BREEDERS IN IOWA ARE NOT ON THE UP-AND-UP NOW THAT BEING SAID ANYTHING BESIDES CRUCIFYING THE FEW HOBBY BREEDERS WHO BREED FOR THEMSELVES WHO FREEZE THEIR "WORTHLESS" AND YES IT IS HIS OWN WORDS WHEN I TYPE "WORTHLESS" DESCRIBING HIS NORMAL MALES AND YES HE DOES FREEZE THEM BECAUSE HE ONLY WANTS THE MORPHS NOW SHUT UP ALL U Instigators!!!!!!!! PLEASE I STARTED THIS FOR A RESPONSE TO MY FUTURE AS A BREEDER NOT A DISCUSSION ON PEOPLE WHO KILL BPs I WAS MAD EARLIER ABOUT FINDING OUT THAT THERE ARE GREEDY AND MEAN PEOPLE KILLING ANIMALS FOR PROFIT/ COST BENEFITS! NOW I'M PMAD AT ALL OF YOU INSTIGATORS OF THE WHOLE FIGHT AGAINST CULLING BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT MY TOPIC GET OFF MY THREAD IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT CHOOSE SOMEWHERE ELSE... NOW WITH THAT BEING SAID THANK YOU ANYONE TRYING TO KEEP THE THREAD ABOUT MY QUESTION THE REST WAS AN EXPLANATION AS TO WHY I DON'T THINK I SHOULD BE A HOBBY BREEDER... IF THE MARKET IS SO FLOODED AND THAT THERE ARE HOBBY BREEDERS WHO KILL TO KEEP PERSONAL COST DOWN AND FURTHER THEIR OWN COLLECTION I THINK ITS SICK BUT I DON'T THINK IN ANY WAY THAT WAS WHAT I STARTED THIS THREAD FOR... PLEASE THIS ISN'T YOUR PLACE TO FIGHT AND VENT... it is my place to get feedback as to whether the BP trade needs another breeder i do believe that was my TITLE!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seeya205

all you have to do is ask the breeder if they have normals for sale and if they never have normals to sell then you know something is going on!

---

i asked if he had any female norms and the freezing thing was his answer...i wanted norm females that are light in pattern and he told me he doesn't want those "worthless norms" the end

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

I started this tHREAD y'ALL sHUT UP I DON'T CARE YOU FEELINGS ON KILLING SNAKES!!! GET OFF MY THREAD IF I SEE ONE MORE THREAD RESPONSE ABOUT KILLING SNAKES I WILL JUST LEAVE BP.NET FOREVER AND I THINK THIS IS A VERY EMOTIONAL TOPIC
( NOT ME BEING A BREEDER BUT CULLING) NOW YOU OUT THERE THINKING GOOD WE DON'T NEED YOU/ME HERE CAN TOTALLY STOP RIGHT NOW PLEASE ALL I WANTED IS COMMENTS ON WHETHER I SHOULD BECOME A BREEDER CUZ THE MARKET SUCKS AND JUST A FEW BREEDERS IN IOWA ARE NOT ON THE UP-AND-UP NOW THAT BEING SAID ANYTHING BESIDES CRUCIFYING THE FEW HOBBY BREEDERS WHO BREED FOR THEMSELVES WHO FREEZE THEIR "WORTHLESS" AND YES IT IS HIS OWN WORDS WHEN I TYPE "WORTHLESS" DESCRIBING HIS NORMAL MALES AND YES HE DOES FREEZE THEM BECAUSE HE ONLY WANTS THE MORPHS NOW SHUT UP ALL U Instigators!!!!!!!! PLEASE I STARTED THIS FOR A RESPONSE TO MY FUTURE AS A BREEDER NOT A DISCUSSION ON PEOPLE WHO KILL BPs I WAS MAD EARLIER ABOUT FINDING OUT THAT THERE ARE GREEDY AND MEAN PEOPLE KILLING ANIMALS FOR PROFIT/ COST BENEFITS! NOW I'M PMAD AT ALL OF YOU INSTIGATORS OF THE WHOLE FIGHT AGAINST CULLING BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT MY TOPIC GET OFF MY THREAD IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT CHOOSE SOMEWHERE ELSE... NOW WITH THAT BEING SAID THANK YOU ANYONE TRYING TO KEEP THE THREAD ABOUT MY QUESTION THE REST WAS AN EXPLANATION AS TO WHY I DON'T THINK I SHOULD BE A HOBBY BREEDER... IF THE MARKET IS SO FLOODED AND THAT THERE ARE HOBBY BREEDERS WHO KILL TO KEEP PERSONAL COST DOWN AND FURTHER THEIR OWN COLLECTION I THINK ITS SICK BUT I DON'T THINK IN ANY WAY THAT WAS WHAT I STARTED THIS THREAD FOR... PLEASE THIS ISN'T YOUR PLACE TO FIGHT AND VENT... it is my place to get feedback as to whether the BP trade needs another breeder i do believe that was my TITLE!

---

This thread has a ton of responses stating that if you have the dedication and funds to breed, then do so. Simple as that. This is a forum for people to discuss topics of interest. It is up to the moderators to decide if the thread is unfit to continue. You put out a very sensitive subject, it is no surprise the thread took the turn it did.

If you want people to stop discussing this, writing in all capital letters does nothing more than confuse and anger people.

sorry for even mentioning killing snakes can we stop this please? i don't like arguments and all i wanted to know is whether people are thinking that one more hobby breeder with aspirations of a large personal collection of morphs creating a lot of normals can find people who will take them off my hands and thank you eel588 i am still a newcomer here i have to learn somehow.... btw what is a troll? i have heard it on other threads.. when i think troll they are either living under bridges in fairy tales or old ugly people what does it mean to be a forum troll?

A troll is someone who purposely posts on the internet to provoke emotional responses. If you look back on this article you can see why this relates.

I honestly see nothing wrong with owning a large collection without having to make it your sole income...if you CAN afford it. Everyone needs to work up to the point of being even a hobby breeder. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to buy a group of 30 or 100 animals and say go for it, because you "think" you like the idea of breeding. Try it out. Get a normal female and a male double or single co-dom. Watch the eggs hatch out, see how much it costs, go from there.

This is a forum. You should use it for advice, not fact, decide what works for you by trying it.

I'm not going to get into the hypothetical side of this, as it seems to be a lot of hearsay... But if there are really people out there killing off perfectly healthy snakes, then it's truly sad. As so many have said, people like that have no business breeding or owning snakes. It would be a shame if an animal's life is worth less than the few meals it would need before being sold. Not to mention the fact that the quantity of morphs a large breeder produces would more than make up for the cost of caring for the normals that would come out as well.

I'm not particularly religious, but if there are people doing this for monetary reasons, well... I think there's a special, warm place in hell reserved for them.

On the subject of humane euthanasia someone brought up... Speaking from the human physiology side of things, yes, ice crystal build up within the meninges (sack that surrounds the brain) is possible during rapid freezing, typically in the sub-arachnoid layer. Whether at that point it would cause pain though is debatable. The breeders I know that do freeze (terminally ill) snakes, typically put them in the refrigerator for about twenty minutes first to induce deep sleep and lethargy, and then put them in the freezer. The other method I am aware of, and have seen used in person, is nitrogen asphyxiation. The snake is put in a tub, which is then filled with nitrogen gas. This causes death by asphyxia, but without the pain caused by lack of oxygen that occurs in suffocation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

I started this tHREAD y'ALL sHUT UP I DON'T CARE YOU FEELINGS ON KILLING SNAKES!!! GET OFF MY THREAD IF I SEE ONE MORE THREAD RESPONSE ABOUT KILLING SNAKES I WILL JUST LEAVE BP.NET FOREVER AND I THINK THIS IS A VERY EMOTIONAL TOPIC
( NOT ME BEING A BREEDER BUT CULLING) NOW YOU OUT THERE THINKING GOOD WE DON'T NEED YOU/ME HERE CAN TOTALLY STOP RIGHT NOW PLEASE ALL I WANTED IS COMMENTS ON WHETHER I SHOULD BECOME A BREEDER CUZ THE MARKET SUCKS AND JUST A FEW BREEDERS IN IOWA ARE NOT ON THE UP-AND-UP NOW THAT BEING SAID ANYTHING BESIDES CRUCIFYING THE FEW HOBBY BREEDERS WHO BREED FOR THEMSELVES WHO FREEZE THEIR "WORTHLESS" AND YES IT IS HIS OWN WORDS WHEN I TYPE "WORTHLESS" DESCRIBING HIS NORMAL MALES AND YES HE DOES FREEZE THEM BECAUSE HE ONLY WANTS THE MORPHS NOW SHUT UP ALL U Instigators!!!!!!!! PLEASE I STARTED THIS FOR A RESPONSE TO MY FUTURE AS A BREEDER NOT A DISCUSSION ON PEOPLE WHO KILL BPs I WAS MAD EARLIER ABOUT FINDING OUT THAT THERE ARE GREEDY AND MEAN PEOPLE KILLING ANIMALS FOR PROFIT/ COST BENEFITS! NOW I'M PMAD AT ALL OF YOU INSTIGATORS OF THE WHOLE FIGHT AGAINST CULLING BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT MY TOPIC GET OFF MY THREAD IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT CHOOSE SOMEWHERE ELSE... NOW WITH THAT BEING SAID THANK YOU ANYONE TRYING TO KEEP THE THREAD ABOUT MY QUESTION THE REST WAS AN EXPLANATION AS TO WHY I DON'T THINK I SHOULD BE A HOBBY BREEDER... IF THE MARKET IS SO FLOODED AND THAT THERE ARE HOBBY BREEDERS WHO KILL TO KEEP PERSONAL COST DOWN AND FURTHER THEIR OWN COLLECTION I THINK ITS SICK BUT I DON'T THINK IN ANY WAY THAT WAS WHAT I STARTED THIS THREAD FOR... PLEASE THIS ISN'T YOUR PLACE TO FIGHT AND VENT... it is my place to get feedback as to whether the BP trade needs another breeder i do believe that was my TITLE!

---

I think most of all it will take you a while to get to the morphs where you are actually breeding enough to make a descent profit. I am sure you would have no problem breaking even for a while or even making a few bucks, but an honest pay the bills with fun money left over profit will probably take awhile unless there is a high demand in your area. I also think that it's not so much that normals arent worth anything as a whole, but for that individual breeder they just arent worth his time apperantly. You shouldn't allow it to deter you. You will be making some normals with your morphs for a while, but like others have said, you will be able to wholesale them out to numerous places/people. I hope you find the "right" decision for you, and I hope it brings you happiness and wealth! :gj:

To answer the question simply is yes. There isbalways room for more breeders. And when you say the market sucks, where and what do ya base that info on.? The market far from sucks. Think about it in the grand scheme of things. We are in a hobby/industry that deals in selling snakes in excess of 50 THOUSAND friggin dollars. Snakes, not fine china or automobiles, but snakes. If you are so worried that you wont be able to sell off your normals and you will have all this surplus then ask yourself this, self, why am i breeding so many normals? Why didnt i buy morph breeders?

Oh yea and by the way. Freezing and killing cull babies was part of your original posting. You were using that as an effect of the market sucking in your eyes.

You will also be more successful as a breeder if you work on your interpersonal skills. Rather than going on a tirade and telling people to shut up, you could have just said, "Guys, I'd appreciate it if we could stay on topic. I made this thread because I'm interested in hearing opinions about the dilution of the market. Perhaps we could move the discussion of culling normals to a new thread?"

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but that all caps post was pretty rude. As was already said, this is a discussion forum and people are going to discuss what's interesting to them. If culling normals wasn't brought up in the original post, no one would be discussing it here. If you don't like the direction your thread is going in, and feel like it has been thread-jacked, there's always a polite way to say it. Anyways, I'm sure you don't need a lecture, we're all adults here, just take it easy. 99.99% of the people on this forum are very well intentioned, and no one meant to instigate any sort of fight in this thread.

Cheers,
-Matt

thank you i realize i was being childish now and i appreciate the words of wisdom i'm still a kid at heart and sometimes need a good lecture the all caps message i would delete if i could but i dunno how or can't it's embarrassing for myself but as emotional as i was at that point my post actually got me reported and the moderator said i should have gotten like 20 but since its my first i got 2 and it was removed all i did was remove my foul language and post it again still with the caps i should have changed it but it was a copy/paste and it was shear laziness at that point but thanks again for all the go-aheads and i will think about it...hard... next year i will be pairing a het albino and an albino pinstripe they are ready this year but i'm not i'm just a pup and never done it before but again sorry for throwing such a tantrum:oops:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

PLEASE THIS ISN'T YOUR PLACE TO FIGHT AND VENT... it is my place to get feedback as to whether the BP trade needs another breeder i do believe that was my TITLE!

---

Certain topics are just impossible to shut down once they get going, at least until a moderator decides there's a reason to freeze the thread. And honestly, when I read your original post, I was so shocked that I wondered if you were intentionally trolling...

But assuming you're not, and you just want input on breeding: if overproduction of low-cost normals and hets worries you, don't breed until you have enough saved up to work with supers. And then make sure there's always a super involved in every one of your pairings.

...I actually don't think you're wrong to consider this issue. Because while the ball python market does continue to grow overall, we are hitting certain saturation points. Given the number of dogs and cats put down every year in America, and that the total number of people wanting ball pythons is potentially quite a bit smaller than the four-legged pet market (even though ball pythons are easier to care for, natch!) I think it's worth at least entertaining the possibility that overproduction will become the norm in the next decade or two, despite the import numbers Luman quoted.

The only way I've ever found of dealing with emotional threads like this is to simply walk away and come back later. Occasionally much, much later. It doesn't feel good, sure, but this is The Internet, and it will happily eat your life for days and weeks rather than let you have the emotional head space you need to make decisions and move on with your life. So if it's freaking you out, seriously: close the browser and avoid this thread for a while. Let the moderators sort it out, it's what they're there for.

thank you loonunit that response was why i started this and me freaking out stopped the bs about culling so in my eyes people(and myself) think its childish but it worked... the squeaky wheel gets greased so i got in trouble with the moderators for it but it stopped before i had 20 pages of posts to scan through to find one like yours... really thats all i wanted to know is the market over saturated and i mentioned culling because it was an extreme measure that one person told me he does to avoid over population of normal ball pythons I had no idea it was a touchy subject I have been a member here a few weeks and I want to produce animals for myself and if i can't sell the normals (and after all the suggestions on who i can either sell or give them to i will breed i know lots of private pet stores and lots of people who have met my snakes and want one, two, three...) i will give them away even if it's on kingsnake or craigslist there is an outlet... thank you all really I am sorry for upsetting some of you and I did learn a lot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pythoncrazy

That is absolutely horrifying...no joke I almost cried at this...and i'm a man I never cry. How could they be so cruel =/ Normals are not worthless and deserve to be healthy and happy not put in a freezer! If you're gonna kill them anyways why would you not just give them away for free to people that want them?! I am absolutely outraged, what the hell is wrong with these people?!

---

Giving them away for free isn't exactly going to guarantee a happy home.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Austin236

Giving them away for free isn't exactly going to guarantee a happy home.

---

To be fair that depends on what other checks you have in place.

pretty sure there were plenty of legit responses already in this thread. If you mention something else, chances are WE are going to mention it too.