Sneak peek!

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I'm not backpedaling anything. I know what I said. It's obviously genetic. My cinnamons do not produce blushed out and lavender tinted (at hatching) blackback cinnys. I'm sorry but I've never seen a cinnamon produced by anyone that looked like that and it was just a cinny.

When comparing to try to make a call on the GBB the female may be, she more closely resembles a het red than the others. I said she must be. Why am I repeating myself??

Then (for those who need an explanation for their holier than though ways) I thought about what I'd said and how I didn't consider the difference between the proven co-dom lines I'd listed (you know, the ones that have a super form) and the genetic BB's that are the dominant lines. Plus, again, like I said (this is getting tiring) I considered the cinny babies have no stripe. Gargoyles usually have a stripe.

The point is, that female proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to be genetic. I know this is a fact because I know what my cinnys would look like otherwise.

Does it really matter if I wanted to call them gargoyles the first day and then realize they are probably a dominant gene and not a co-dom gene? Personally, I'd rather them be dominant blackbacks. My blackback project is just that. I don't want a stripe in what I plan to produce.

So go find someone else to try to put down if it makes you feel better. It isn't going to work in this situation because I got exactly what I wanted out of that unproven female. Who (oh my god!) is not just a nice normal!

;)

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Not trying to rip your heart out here bud, but I've produced 2 cinnies this year, both of which came from parents that DO NOT have black backs... and both of them came out with almost FULL black backs (minus a couple of spots like yours). They were both very lavender in tint when they were born and I'm sure they'll hold it after their first shed. They should be shed in another day or two and I'll post pics.

Was this your first time producing cinnamons?

Edit: Here are some pics of them in deep shed and you can still see the lavendar colored blushing on the left cinny.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...ar/cinnies.jpg

All I'm trying to say is that is a VERY large variation with ANY morph, and the fact that you produced a clutch of black backs DOES NOT automatically mean you proved your female. It helps with observation and you have a much better chance at proving her to be genetic, but if this is the first time you've bred her, then you DO NOT know for sure whether or not she is genetic. And you saying "My cinnamons do not produce blushed out and lavender tinted (at hatching) blackback cinnys" doesn't mean squat. How many clutches of cinnamons have you ever produced? I mean it must be at least 10 for you to be able to accurately say that. I've seen babies come from the same clutch that were the same morph and they looked nothing alike. Matter of fact, I have videos of a spider clutch I produced last year and 3 of the spiders hatched were ALL different colors. The pairing was spider x normal. So, the variation is possible and it's ALWAYS there. That's the beautiful thing about hatching out baby snakes, you never know what you are going to get or in what color and pattern combo either.

With all that being said. I hope you do prove your female. But until you've bred one of her offspring back to her or produced several clutches with her with the same results, then you just have a nice looking normal. Good luck proving her out.

I also wanted to add this to my post. You are talking about a morph (cinnamon) that usually throws black backs (any and all lines). You bred a cinnamon to a POSSIBLE black back, and you got black back cinnies. Now you automatically think that they are GBB cinnies. I'm sorry, but if you wanted to prove that for sure, then why not use a morph that doesn't GENERALLY have black backs? I mean, the normals all coming out black back is great, and it's a step in the right direction for sure. But knowing whether or not it's TRULY genetic you can't be certain of. Now if it had been a spotnose x Possible GBB, and you hatched out spotnose black backs, it would have been way more believable. Considering the spotnose is known for it's dorsal striping and not being blushed, whereas a cinnamon is known to do EXACTLY what it did in your clutch.

I'm not trying to hate here. I promise. I just think you may have jumped the gun on what you have. I'd be proud of what you hatched and I'd be very eager to prove that female for sure to be a GBB. But one clutch isn't enough evidence to do so, especially not with the morph you bred her to.

No it isn't my first cinny clutch. Past cinnys from that male looked nothing like these. Not to mention, the normals also inherited the BB pattern along with the full body alien heads, some of which connect.. They're genetic.


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.

Got some nice looking cinnies their...

Cinnamons do not look like this.. To someone who may not work with them, maybe. Cinnamons have always been my all time favorite morph. I've produced a few clutches and make a point to look at as many others at possible. High quality examples, low quality example that look like black pastels, and everything in between. Yes I'm aware that they usually have some sort of black back.

These are clearly different. The amount of extra colors, contrast, etc.. It's clear to me, and most others who see these little ones. Extra orange in places, lighter gold top spots, just everything about these screams unique.

The normals also inherited moms light coloration in high contrast to the jet black and almost continuous back pattern. Very iridescent with a hint of blushing in places. Flames, white outlining, lines under the BB pattern in areas.

There is no doubt about what that big female is and I'm not the only person saying this. No wait, I've only been breeding for 5 years so let me rephrase that.. I'm not the only breeder saying this.. I may have been wrong about wanting to call them het red and I'm glad I was because GBB add so much more than just cool blushing. But I'm sure this was not just a 7 baby fluke.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/43a34993-78a3-5cfa.jpg

http://tapatalk.com/mu/43a34993-792c-5152.jpg

http://tapatalk.com/mu/43a34993-796c-b4c1.jpg


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.

Okay.

If that's your claim...

It's been done before...

Let's all jump in. I'll repeat it again next season. And the season after that. I'm that confident in this clutch. You're right. Its been done before and I'll do it again ;)


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.

I want one!!!! or 2 :)

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Originally Posted by llovelace

I want one!!!! or 2 :)

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Oh I'm not sure if I'm getting rid of the others that were not my immediate holdbacks or not. I'm too excited to breed them all to see if there is a better version and I can improve on that funky pattern on the normals. I wish I'd bred that momma to a lavender albino.


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Let's all jump in. I'll repeat it again next season. And the season after that. I'm that confident in this clutch. You're right. Its been done before and I'll do it again ;)


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.

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I'd suspect you would produce babies like that consistantly from that female. Brian Gundy does it every year with his Gold Blush Mojave line... Those normals of his throw some spectacular looking mojaves. His mojaves don't look like anyone elses. So it would not surprise me one bit if that female throws a specific look or even color... it's called a normals gene pool, some are better than others.

I seriously do wish you the best of luck proving that female to be genetic, I just won't agree that she is after seeing the results of one clutch. I wasn't trying to talk down to you in any way when I made my post. I'm simply making the point that no breeder I know would put his reputation on the line after hatching one clutch. That's all I'm saying. You on the other hand seem to be hell bent that she's genetic and you know it without a shadow of a doubt. I just hope for your reputations sake she really is. I think posting the photos of the normals may have actually hurt your story here too, because from the looks of it only one looks like a black back and even it isn't a very good example. The other two just look like standard normals. I really don't mean that to sound derogitory, they just do. Sorry. I've seen way to many good looking normals hatch to buy into it after only one clutch. But in no way am I saying your female can't be genetic or that you are wrong. I'm just saying that I wouldn't buy into it after seeing only one clutch from her is all. After 3 or 4 of the same consistant look or even producing a super, then I'd buy it. Or maybe if you bred her to a normal and got GBB's and normals. If it's genetic they would look different right? Well then you would know for sure. But after putting her to a cinnamon and making black back cinnamons, doesn't really prove anything. And like I said only one of those normals looks like a GBB possibility to me. Maybe 2, but even the second one is far from even being blushed 1/2 way. So probably not there either. The color thing doens't always mean genetic either, normals can look bunches of different ways. And normals bred to morphs can make unique looking morphs (Brian Gundy is the perfect example).

Here are a couple of pics just to show you how much normals can vary.

Pic #1 - Sire: Spotnose + POG Dam: Normal - None of these parents are GBB's nor do any of them have much or any dorsal blushing. And not to boast but this animal looks better than 2 of your 3 GBB's you posted and it's not.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...norm-m-001.jpg

Pic #2 and #3 - Sire: 100% Het Albino Dam: 100% Het Albino - Neither of these animals are as light as this female 66% het that I hatched. She looks to me like a vannila, but she's not, she's just a normal. Her brother looks just like mom and dad. (female left - male right **both pics**)
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...orm-mf-001.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...mal-mf-002.jpg

Keep going if you want but they're genetic. So long winded. Lol


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.

That looks insane!!!
Both me and my gf were totally blown away!! :rolleye2:

Huge grats dude!! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Keep going if you want but they're genetic. So long winded. Lol


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.

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I'm not going to argue, you hit 7 morphs out of 7 eggs with no super.

Congrats and good luck.

Might try Vegas with those kind of odds going your way. lol

Nice babies!

Perhaps someone could explain what exactly a GBB is. I guess I'm not up to speed with this particular morph. Is it that they don't have back spots, or at least, fewer of them? Does it have to do with blushing, or a lack of?

Genetic Black Back

Nothing is showing up, Heather. :P

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Nothing is showing up, Heather. :P

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Well, the problem with the definition is that it can refer to different "morphs".

Proven morph genetic black backs would be Het Red Axanthics.

Others would be considered animals that relay the trait of Black Back-ness.

Because of the ambiguity of Black Back-ness, it can really be any animal with a Black back. It just depends on who you talk to, which is where this debate about the animals in the thread is really stemming from.

Oh sorry. When I responded to you I thought you tried to post a pic and Genetic Black Back was what you were posting. I knew that GBB stood for that. So it is basically an animal that has a black back and the definition of a GENETIC black back, varies.

Yep!

And I thought you wanted to know what a GBB was. LOL.

No worries. :)

From what I've been able to find out, and from the looks of this clutch, like heather said, if it's not a het red or red ax, it just means a black back pattern that will be passed on to the babies in varying degrees. I did talk to some breeders about these and their own experience w GBB in comparison to het red. The GBB do tend to affect the pattern in ways other than just a black back. I'd compare the pattern to het Russo. Excessive alien heads, key holes, flames, blushing, etc..

According to NERD and Corey Woods, some GBB lines do have a super form which would just be a much more pronounced and complete black back with more contrast.

Since the age and origin of the female of this clutch was unknown, I won't know more until I breed back next season. I guess it's possible that female is actually the super form considering all the babies got those traits. I'd be more willing to believe that if I'd bred her to a normal instead though.


Sent by some psychotic female who claims to be from this planet.