Unexpected Eggs

I have actually seen that big-eyed condition before. There was an 09 pied male for sale on kingsnake and they were letting it go for about $500 less than pieds were worth at the time. They were suggesting that despite his deformity, he still possessed the pied gene and was worth breeding. I wasn't so sure about that...

Anyway, I am very interested to know whether the babies are all male or all female. I at first assumed they must be all female because I didn't know about the ZW chromosome system, but now I'm not sure. If we knew what gender they were, it might shed some light on what chromosome system ball pythons go by. Interesting stuff!

so how r they doing did u talk to someone about her having eggs let us know :please::confused::)

anything new going on with the wee ones??

The kids are all doing fine. Thanks for asking. The vet asked us to bring Bugsy in yesterday for a check up and she gave her the thumbs up. Rocco and Cleo both shed yesterday. Bugsy shed tonight and her eye is much better. The big crusty eye cap came off and revealed a much better looking eye.

I never heard from anyone at the museum, so I e-mailed their biology dept and attached a link to this thread. Maybe I'll hear from them or maybe not. Who knows, maybe they dont believe me. I guess if I dont hear from them by the end of next week I'll contact the herp society in Cinci. Thanks again guys.

im glad everyone is going ok, do u have any pics u can put up of them? i would love to see them freshly shed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ntume

All babies should be females.

---

Are you sure?

I know NOTHING about sex determination in snakes, or if its common across all snake species.

The komodo dragon (also able to reproduce via parthenogenesis) uses the ZW system, reversed from the XY system, where the female is ZW and the male is ZZ. This lets komodo females reproducing via parthenogenesis have both male and female offspring.

Does anyone know about snakes?

edit: my girlfriend (who usually knows these things) says that all snakes use the ZW system, so the snakes could be either male or female.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

Are you sure?

I know NOTHING about sex determination in snakes, or if its common across all snake species.

The komodo dragon (also able to reproduce via parthenogenesis) uses the ZW system, reversed from the XY system, where the female is ZW and the male is ZZ. This lets komodo females reproducing via parthenogenesis have both male and female offspring.

Does anyone know about snakes?

edit: my girlfriend (who usually knows these things) says that all snakes use the ZW system, so the snakes could be either male or female.

---

PM sent!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lesserbee

PM sent!

---

But we wanna know too!

I would think that any temperature spikes or drops could account for the different patterns. I'd like to see a new picture of Bugsy. This is so interesting!

Unfortunately I'm out of town this weekend and wont be able to take and post new pics until Monday. I cant wait to see Bugsy myself because I'm just going by what my daughter told me on the phone. I also need to try and feed them when I get home. Should I try live mice or frozen pinkies?

Normally you'll have better luck with live hopper mice. Keep us posted. I find myself logging in everyday just to check this thread.

Hi guys. I tried to feed the babies live hopper mice today, but none of them wanted to eat. Its been 2 weeks since they hatched, so when do they get hungry? Are they born digesting their eggs yolk? I ask because Cleo pooped in my daughter's hand today (too funny). Anyway, I took some new pics of the kids.

BUGSY
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../BABIES008.jpg

CLEO
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../BABIES010.jpg

ROCCO
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../BABIES014.jpg
:D

Hi,

Any updates on how bugsy did - has he shed and did it help any? :please:


dr del

Wow Cleo has an amazing pattern on her i wish my Cleo looked like that lol and i hope bugsy is doing good

The kids are all doing OK. None have eaten on their own yet. I have assist fed each one frozen pinkies twice. The only really stubborn one was Rocco. He really didnt want to eat and kept trying to spit it out. Cleo and Bugsy gobbled down the pinkies as soon as I got them in thier mouths. I went to the pinkies after they refused live hopper mice.

Bugsy is still having eye problems, but not as bad as they were. I'm hoping she does better as she gets older and sheds a few more times. However, I think she has a mouth/jaw problem as well. It just doesnt look right when she opens it. It looks like one side doesnt close evenly with the other. With that said, she is still as active as the other 2 and flicks her short little tongue out while exploring.

Cleo and Rocco are also both very active and love to climb, but Cleo still has that kink in her neck. The vet said she should grow out of it.

Eptius (mom) has also been very active since the babies hatched. She unlike the babies is eating great. She has eaten every rat I've put in front of her. Every time I walk by her tank she sticks her head out of her hide rock as if to see what I have for her.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get the kids eating on their own soon. :)

I'm glad things are working out for you. Good luck with the youngsters, I know first hand how anxious you can get hoping they'll eat on their own. At least they're all doing well.

sorry to hear about your mother, but the snake story is just awesome. i personally tink bugsy looks the best, are they eating yet?

Good new. I gave Cleo AKA Kinky a hopper mouse tonight and left them alone for a little while. While I was out of the room, she killed it and started eating it. She eventually ate the whole thing. I'll try Rocco and Bugsy tomorrow.
:banana:

Congrats, :)

And best of luck with the others. **crosses fingers** :gj:


dr del

Could you post an updated close up of Bugsy's eyes?

OK guys, I'm 2 for 2 now. Rocco ate his first hopper mouse on his own tonight. I left the mouse with him while we had dinner. I came back to find him swallowing the mouse. I was really surprised because he initially didnt show any interest. Its Bugsy's turn tomorrow night and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'll take some new pics of her tomorrow before I try to feed her.

Now that 2 out of 3 have eaten on their own, It has really started to sink in that all 3 are probably going to make it. This is my first experiece with hatchlings and I have just been learning as I go. Add to that the fact that they should not have been born in the first place and its really kind of mind blowing.

Once they are all eating, I'll have to decide which one I'm going to keep and which 2 I'm going to have to find homes for. :snake::snake::snake:

So there was more than one sex in the clutch? Very interesting.

Cheers,
-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt K

So there was more than one sex in the clutch? Very interesting.

Cheers,
-Matt

---

I know, right?

I'm starting to think momma snake was fooling around with the neighbors at night while you guys were asleep. :D

If she got 20 years of holdover sperm... I wanna know who's the daddy! Lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by santino34

Once they are all eating, I'll have to decide which one I'm going to keep and which 2 I'm going to have to find homes for. :snake::snake::snake:

---

oooo does this mean Cleo could be up for grabs? she is a beauty i would be first in line for her! she would make an amazing pet no way would i breed her because of the kink but i love her pattern

I REALLY dont know about their sex. I'm just going by the names my kids chose. Their actual sex is still a mystery to me. :confused:

Ohhhh, very cool! You should have them sexed if at all possible--my bet is on them being all males. It would definitely be an interesting little piece of information to have, and would teach us more about parthenogenesis in Ball Pythons. Anywho, I'm still stoked for you! I'd love to have on of those little guys in my collection!

Cheers,
-Matt

I had a baby pastel hatch out with a bubble like that over it's eye.
I tossed it into a trade for free to a guy and he told me it died.

I'd put him down to be honest.

But awesome on the parthenogenesis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kingofspades

I had a baby pastel hatch out with a bubble like that over it's eye.
I tossed it into a trade for free to a guy and he told me it died.

I'd put him down to be honest.

But awesome on the parthenogenesis.

---

You will put him down because he has a chance of dying???:mad:

Bugsy is still having some eye problems that switch off between eyes. The left one will swell then drain and then later the right. I offered her a live hopper mouse 2 nights in a row and she didnt eat it. I'll try again tonight.

Offering food too often will put them off feed, so you probably should give him a few days before offering again.

thats amazing but how the heck can she have babies without a daddy????? im confused as hell unless she was with a male while u were gone....idk anyway good luck:gj:

Any updates or new pictures? I'd love to see em! :)

Me too!

Here is the latest. I had to put Bugsy down because she continued to have problems with her eyes and she would not eat on her own. Rocco is eating great and getting huge. Cleo is smaller than Rocco and will only eat every 2 weeks. If I try to feed her once a week, she kills the mouse and leaves it.

I will try to take some new pics by the end of the week and post them here.

Thanks for the continued interest guys.

Sorry to hear you had to put Bugsy down :(. We have a hatchling with the same condition and while his eyes drained completely they filled back up with fluids recently and even with assist feedings he's still not growing or thriving.

I'm glad to hear the others are doing well though :).


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

That is exactly what I experienced with Bugsy :(

Wow what an amazing story! This is one of the few thread this long that I read from beginning to end! I have to admit I had to take a break to look up Parthenogenesis, and I found the following post. http://forum.kingsnake.com/ball/messages/74370.html

If anyone is interested. I am curious as to where you are at in SW Ohio. I live in Erlanger KY myself. Did anyone that studies pathenogenesis ever contact you?

I am sorry to hear about your mother, and Bugsy. :(

I am sorry but to me something just stinks about this whole story. Has there ever been any scientific proof of a female ball python laying eggs without mating?

Sounds like a crock to me...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I am sorry but to me something just stinks about this whole story. Has there ever been any scientific proof of a female ball python laying eggs without mating?

Sounds like a crock to me...

---

We need an unlike button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I am sorry but to me something just stinks about this whole story. Has there ever been any scientific proof of a female ball python laying eggs without mating?

Sounds like a crock to me...

---

Yes it's called parthenogenesis and it does happen very rarely in ball pythons. Way to be a wet blanket.

Thanks guys. I am near Dayton, Ohio. I reported it to the local Boomshoft Museum of Discovery, but they never came out to see the snakes or anything. They acknowledged the parthenogenesis, but nothing more.

My bet is on them being females. I have mourning geckos--all female. In the majority of cases of parthenogenesis, the mother essentially clones herself. They don't all have the same pattern because pattern is only partially genetic--it's also developmental. That's why identical twin snakes also do not have identical patterns. Genetically identical does not mean physically identical.

Komodo dragons are a highly unusual case--females that reproduce via parthenogenesis will have all male offspring (not a mix of genders). As far as I know, they're the only species that does this. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

It will be extremely interesting to hear if this female repeats the trick in the future! You may have better luck with clutches down the road, if you find them more quickly and get them into a stable incubator. Deformities such as you see there can be caused by improper incubation temperatures at crucial points in development, not just by genetics. (Actually, they're associated with incubation problems more often than with genetic problems).

Interesting story! Thx 4 sharin! I agree #3 is BEAUTIFUL!

I remember a case of Burmese python parthenogenesis in a European zoo where the embryos (some whacked zoo policy prevented allowing them to hatch) where all female clones of mom. The article commented on that being unusual as at the time parthenogenesis had been seen in some viper where apparently a random half of the moms genetic material was doubled and only the ZZ sons where viable (interesting about the WW female boas surviving in the wiki link). So apparently two types of parthenogenesis are known in snakes.

Congrats on hatching these as I've seen several reports like this through the years where i suspected the clutch was lost due to inexperience with incubation. Would be great if could eventually find a grad student to do some testing of mom and babies for a paper to see if these are the clone type or the fully homozygous type. You could also perhaps find a local breeder here to sex them for you and if any males might explain the problems as fully homozygous animals might expose a few bad genes from mom.

I suspect parthenogenesis might happen fairly often in ball pythons, perhaps even when males are present, but most are quick to dismiss the possibility. Could explain the occasional unexpected phenotype result in morph breedings.

WOW! I read this thread front to back in one sitting haha!
That's really weird! Whether it be parthenogenesis or stored sperm, it's awesome!

I can't imagine the shock you had when you found EGGS! O_O

Hi all,

New member here and first post. I first bred ball pythons in 1983 and still have a male I got in a pet store in 1979.

I came to this thread through a search for parthenogenesis in ball pythons. This is a very interesting story, indeed; not just because of the genetics, but due to the human interest angle, as well: long-time pet purchased to help pay off someone's utility bill, etc.

Here's a link to the case of the zoo animal that Randy Remington referred to above: It's in the journal, Heredity, "Molecular genetic evidence for parthenogenesis in the Burmese python, Python molurus bivittatus" http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v9.../6800210a.html

The problem with our anecdotal information is that we can never be sure (or at least, never really convince everyone) that these are truly cases of parthenogenesis without some sort of specialized DNA testing of the offspring. It would be nice if the original poster could find some academic specialist willing to do this.

Anyway, the same sort of thing happened to me just ten days ago. A virgin female ball python I produced myself seven years ago deposited a small clutch of eggs. If anything comes of it, I'll post more.

That's cool to know of another occurrence. Definitely keep us posted.

is this just a random thing or are there environmental factors that can contribute to this happening?

a while back i got a female bp. the first thing i noticed was my male going insane in his enclosure. well insane for him. he is about 800 grams and an 06. he started producing sperm but calmed down and continued to eat so i left them in the same room. i recently noticed my female acting strange. she has been coiling her her water bowl and i find her in her hide upside down.

i gave this behavior little notice because she has had absolutely ZERO contact with my male. now i might just set up an incubator.

this was by far the most interesting thread i have read so far. i have a degree in biology and chemistry. i have read about this but really do not know anything about it. very fascinating!

are there any updates? I'm curious where the surviving babies ended up. do you still have them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jfmoore

Hi all,

New member here and first post. I first bred ball pythons in 1983 and still have a male I got in a pet store in 1979.

---

Ummm...how about some pictures please of your 32 year old python. He is probably older than half of the members on here!!

I would love to see some updated pictures of these guys. This was a very interesting thread when I first read it :)