Mystery Lesser Clutch? Help ID?

Registered especially after seeing this thread! WOW, huge congrats mate :O

Thanks so much everyone for the great comments. I heard back from Ralph Davis the other day and he confirmed them to be Platty Daddys! And 2.2 to boot! Also have 1.1 "sibs" and 0.2 lesser. I couldn't be happier!

Wow! That is so awesome! Congrats :)

Congratulations!! That is soooo freakin awesome! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Chad Hulker

Thanks so much everyone for the great comments. I heard back from Ralph Davis the other day and he confirmed them to be Platty Daddys! And 2.2 to boot! Also have 1.1 "sibs" and 0.2 lesser. I couldn't be happier!

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Congrats!

In this particular breeding you can't be sure the "sibs" are hidden gene carriers like you could if one parent was a platy. But they are still 50% chance hidden gene carriers.

and this is why i love snake breeding. you just never know what ya gonna get. Awesome clutch and awesome odds. Those are some beautiful animals. :gj:

I just found this thread and I have to say congratulations. What incredible luck and hatching out four no less, wow! :gj:

thanks again everyone. Randy i had been wondering that same thing but i'm pretty sure you're right about that. Since Mom was just a "het" that would make the normals 50% possibles. Also i've been looking at Ralphs page and i haven't seen him breed Platty x Lesser...although i'm assuming that this will produce Plattys, BEL(poss hidden gene?), lessers, and het sibs. Does that sound correct?

Ralph's page seems like it might be outdated. And either way, it's hard to follow.

I think Platty x Lesser Platty would produce all those, but only Platties if the Lesser is a hidden gene carrier, and it gets everything else right.

If I've followed all this right. Your normal was a hidden gene carrier, right? As was the Lesser?

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Ralph's page seems like it might be outdated. And either way, it's hard to follow.

I think Platty x Lesser Platty would produce all those, but only Platties if the Lesser is a hidden gene carrier, and it gets everything else right.

If I've followed all this right. Your normal was a hidden gene carrier, right? As was the Lesser?

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Platty x lesser gives platties, BEL's, lessers, and "het platties." The normal would have been the only one with the hidden mutation. The hidden mutation would cause a lesser to display the platty phenotype.

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Russ Lawson

Platty x lesser gives platties, BEL's, lessers, and "het platties." The normal would have been the only one with the hidden mutation. The hidden mutation would cause a lesser to display the platty phenotype.

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Wouldn't it also give normals which would make any "het platties" impossible to identify so you would have to call all non-visuals 50% poss het platties?


dr del

platty x lesser would technically also produce BELs that carry the daddy trait, right?

Hi,

I don't think so. :confused:

If the platty daddy gene is in the same location as the lesser gene then a BEL can't be carrying it.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



Wouldn't it also give normals which would make any "het platties" impossible to identify so you would have to call all non-visuals 50% poss het platties?


dr del

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Platty x anything will not produce any normals. All snakes will carry either the Lesser gene or the Daddy gene.

And as to the Platty - Lesser breeding.

See clutch 4
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...pythons_04.asp


See clutch 5
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...pythons_05.asp

At least after this thread i know more about the Platty!
Amazing clych - good for you :)

Absolutely awesome! Congrats!

just curious, is there any "platty" combo out there? If so, do they looks much different than "lesser" combo...apart from the price tag?

So has anyone every held back all the "normal" offspring from a few clutches of lesser X normal and bred back the lesser to the normals to see if by chance it would produce a Platty? If Plattys act as a co-dom/homozygous animal and you bred it to a normal you would get 1/2 lessers and 1/2 normals 100% "Het" Platty. If you bred a Platty to a Normal 100% "Het" Platty you would get Platty, Lessers and Normals poss. "het" Platty. Why wouldn't the normals be 66% if the Platty acts as the homozygous form and the normal acts as the 100% het. Also could we assume that every lesser is 100% het. for Platty? If you breed any Lesser to a Platty or to a Normal 100% "Het" Platty you get Plattys right.... ? Still a little confused

Joe Ellis

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



Wouldn't it also give normals which would make any "het platties" impossible to identify so you would have to call all non-visuals 50% poss het platties?


dr del

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No, when you put it into a square, one of the wild-type alleles from the lesser pairs up with the lesser allele from the platty, while the other wild-type allele from the lesser pairs up with the hidden allele from the platty.

The reason you have 50% possible het platties in the clutch from this thread is because there are wild-type alleles from both parents. Your odds are theoretically 1:4 platinum, 1:4 lesser, 1:4 "het platinum", and 1:4 normal - thus 50% poss het platties.

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Originally Posted by JoeEllisReptiles

So has anyone every held back all the "normal" offspring from a few clutches of lesser X normal and bred back the lesser to the normals to see if by chance it would produce a Platty?

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Lots of people tried that when lessers were first sold, there were a lot of normal girls held back from lesser x normal clutches and bred back to lessers, no platinums were produced.

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Originally Posted by JoeEllisReptiles

If Plattys act as a co-dom/homozygous animal and you bred it to a normal you would get 1/2 lessers and 1/2 normals 100% "Het" Platty. If you bred a Platty to a Normal 100% "Het" Platty you would get Platty, Lessers and Normals poss. "het" Platty. Why wouldn't the normals be 66% if the Platty acts as the homozygous form and the normal acts as the 100% het.

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Platinum x hidden gene carrier will produce platinums, lessers, and normal looking animals that carry the hidden gene. The platinum passes either the lesser gene or the hidden gene to it's offspring, regardless of what the other parent is.

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Originally Posted by JoeEllisReptiles

Also could we assume that every lesser is 100% het. for Platty? If you breed any Lesser to a Platty or to a Normal 100% "Het" Platty you get Plattys right.... ? Still a little confused

Joe Ellis

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I guess you could say the lesser is het for platinum in the same way it is het for leucistic, if that makes it easier for you to wrap your head around it. You still need a platinum or normal looking hidden gene carrier to produce a platinum though.

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Originally Posted by jluman

Platinum x hidden gene carrier will produce platinums, lessers, and normal looking animals that carry the hidden gene. The platinum passes either the lesser gene or the hidden gene to it's offspring, regardless of what the other parent is.

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So that means by keeping the "normal" looking sibs and breeding them back to a parent/diff lesser they'll produce more platinums?..I kinda understand the genetics but once you get more techinical I go "blond"..lol...I am wanting to get a lesser and try making some plattys one day....

So point/question is, keeping and breeding back "normal" sibs can produce more plattys right?

Thanks..

The "sibs" are from platinum offspring clutches.

The "Daddy" gene (the one that makes a Lesser x Daddy into a Platinum) is part of the BEL "Complex", in other words it's a gene that codes for a different/altered protein at the same spot as the other ones. So a Platinum just like a BEL has no normal gene at that one spot, instead it carries the Lesser and the Daddy genes at that spot.

Thus a Platinum will only produce Lessers and "Het Daddies" (aka they are heterozygous for the "Daddy" gene). These "Het Daddies" will give you a 25% chance of producing Platinums when bred to a Lesser (just like other Recessive/Co-dom genes). If bred to a Platinum you will get 25% Platinums, 25% Het Daddies, 25% Lessers and 25% Normals.

If you breed 2 Platinums together you can produce 25% BELs, 50% Platinums, and 25% Hom Daddies (which will look like normals but if you breed them to a BEL you will get 100% Platinums, or if you breed them to a Lesser you will get 50% Platinums and 50% Het Daddies).

It's pretty crazy, but if you remember that both the Daddy gene and the Lesser gene are at the same spot (thus they either coexist or you have 1 or the other, or neither) it makes it easier.

Its known that you can produce 25% Butter Daddies if you breed a Butter to a Het Daddy, it it not known if it reacts with Vin Russo Hets/Mojaves/Phantoms.

Yeah, thats what I was assuming (Platty sibs), the sibs WILL be het "daddy", and when bred to lesser theres a chance of producing more...

I understand it alittle better now..lol..I thought boa genetics were complex....lol..

Thanks for that...I love this site.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

The "sibs" are from platinum offspring clutches.

If you breed 2 Platinums together you can produce 25% BELs, 50% Platinums, and 25% Hom Daddies (which will look like normals but if you breed them to a BEL you will get 100% Platinums, or if you breed them to a Lesser you will get 50% Platinums and 50% Het Daddies).

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What does "HOM" stand for in "HOM Daddy" and why does it look like a normal?

~SC

Homozygous. The really odd thing about the hidden aka daddy aka dilute aka sib mutation is that not only do the hets look normal (unlike the het lessers which are visible lessers) even the homozygous hidden remains normal looking (i.e. "hidden"). So it's a mutation you would just have to track through breeding results and/or parentage. One animal you can be sure doesn't have it is a normal lesser because if it did it would be a platy. Also, since it's apparently a mutation of the same gene as lesser/butter, mojave, phantom/mystic, Vin Russo, and mocha keep in mind that any one snake only has two of these (or any) genes total so if it's already say a mystic potion (mystic + mojave) it doesn't have room for a third copy (like hidden or even the normal version of this gene).

Have there been any breedings done using the hidden daddy gene to the other bel complex morphs?..Phantom/Mystic, het russo, mojave..etc? I haven't heard of any so i'm real curious as to if it will take to those other morphs as it does to lessers. Maybe a project worth trying?

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Originally Posted by Chad Hulker

Have there been any breedings done using the hidden daddy gene to the other bel complex morphs?..Phantom/Mystic, het russo, mojave..etc? I haven't heard of any so i'm real curious as to if it will take to those other morphs as it does to lessers. Maybe a project worth trying?

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Ralph Davis has produced a good number of hidden gene x butter and hidden gene x phantom animals, you can see them if you go look in his clutch records on his site. I have a hidden gene x mojave clutch due to hatch around the end of the week, so hopefully we will get to see what happens soon. If the mojave combo turns out cool maybe I will try the het Russo down the road.

when you were candleing the eggs couldyou notice any difference in the "shades".......and around what days if you did.and when did you cut also
im curious now cause i have a 7 egg clutch 4 eggs look normal
around day 30 their color started coming in and could see all the eyes and eye stripes well 4 of the 3 we could see eye stripes and those same 3 you can see hadly no pattern its very faint........
day 40 now and still cant see anything:gj: i know most color come around day 45-60 so crossing fingers

Unfortunately, I am the world's worst candler lol. I never seem to be able to see enough to tell much about the snakes inside. I did cut the eggs though, and I would say that the platinum was obviously different at day 50.

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Originally Posted by jluman

Ralph Davis has produced a good number of hidden gene x butter and hidden gene x phantom animals, you can see them if you go look in his clutch records on his site. I have a hidden gene x mojave clutch due to hatch around the end of the week, so hopefully we will get to see what happens soon. If the mojave combo turns out cool maybe I will try the het Russo down the road.

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So what ere the results?? is there a mojave daddy??

So whats the difference between lessers and platinums? I just acquired a pair of lessers under the impression that they are lesser platinums. Do they both make the blue eyed lucy and if so what is the difference? Thought I knew what was going on but from this I'm doubting myself. Here are some pics of mine. Will these make BEL's? Thanks
http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/...ce1981/007.jpg
http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/...ce1981/001.jpg

What you have are Lesser Platinums. People call them Lessers for short. And yes, they make BELs.

Platinums aka Platty Daddies include another "hidden" gene to make a different snake.

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Originally Posted by wax32

What you have are Lesser Platinums. People call them Lessers for short. And yes, they make BELs.

Platinums aka Platty Daddies include another "hidden" gene to make a different snake.

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Thanks, I thought I knew what I had but this subject just keeps coming up and It makes me start doubting things. Thanks for clearing that up.

Funny how people ask the same question over and over in the same thread.. yes, this may be a 9 page thread, but there is ALOT of info in here!! I thought I knew everything I needed to know on platty daddy's till I read this thread.. now I know alot more!! This is a GREAT thread but you do need to READ it.. not just post at the end...

Phantom x het platty are called phantom 44 as they appeared in clutch 44 in the production year (think they appeared in 2005)...
In 2008 Ralph bred a male from the 44 clutch and got some very interesting phantoms Just like the father..

i need updated pics!!

PICS!!!!!

very cool read, learned tons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Xan Powers!

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Originally Posted by jakethesnake36

Phantom x het platty are called phantom 44 as they appeared in clutch 44 in the production year (think they appeared in 2005)...
In 2008 Ralph bred a male from the 44 clutch and got some very interesting phantoms Just like the father..

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I've been looking for that clutch for days!! lol :rolleye2:

Thank you!:banana:

Absolutely stunning! Congrats!

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Originally Posted by Subdriven

I've been looking for that clutch for days!! lol :rolleye2:

Thank you!:banana:

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You are welcome :)

couple of updated pics for everyone. I kept back 1.1 and theyre doing great :)

female at 950 gramas
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...00_0005_00.jpg

female again
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...00_0004_01.jpg

male breeding a mojave
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...5/100_1538.jpg

platty x pastel
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...5/100_1546.jpg

platty x norm
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...5/100_1519.jpg

hoping to at least make some "het" platties this season.

They look great! You're lucky :)

Gratz again on them. Hit me up when they start hatching. :gj:

awesome stuff Chad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Xan Powers!

I've seen people post pics of a lesser they bought and loved that it was so light. They looked like your Platty daddys. Wonder if they got pattys at a lesser price and neither the buyer or seller knew. Who knows how many het plattys are out there thinking they are normals!

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Originally Posted by Subdriven

I've seen people post pics of a lesser they bought and loved that it was so light. They looked like your Platty daddys. Wonder if they got pattys at a lesser price and neither the buyer or seller knew. Who knows how many het plattys are out there thinking they are normals!

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I am 100% sure that any breeder that likes money would not accidentally give away platty daddys :P

I remember this clutch. You definitely hit the jackpot on this one. :) And thanks for the updated pics :gj:

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Originally Posted by Subdriven

I've seen people post pics of a lesser they bought and loved that it was so light. They looked like your Platty daddys. Wonder if they got pattys at a lesser price and neither the buyer or seller knew. Who knows how many het plattys are out there thinking they are normals!

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There are certainly lighter lessers out there but that doesn't make them platty daddys. Look at the clutch pics at the beginning of the thread, the lessers and platty daddys are drastically different in color..pretty hard to confuse the two and accidentally sell a platty daddy as a lesser.

That is awesome! Congratulations!:O

Unbelievable. I've been itching to get a lesser for a while now. After reading this, I've got to get my hands on one. :rolleyes: