Maternally Incubating Again =)

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Originally Posted by mykee

QT:

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Ball pythons are one of the few snakes that cannot alter the temps or humidity of their environment for the time that they are "babysitting" their eggs.

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I've always heard the opposite of what your stating here as well. Humidity is easy...all they have to do is pee... :D I thought they could tense and twitch their muscles to produce a little extra heat while laying on eggs though. :confused:

This is a really cool thread. I'm definitely going to have to let one maternally incubate just to see the whole process first hand. I was wondering about the interaction of the babies and mother as they pip...

Thanks for all the info you've passed on your experiences...:gj:

You've really sparked my interest in doing this.

I'm planning on next year being the first year for breeding. I've got a few questions.

-How soon after laying did you start to offer food?
-Would you only use mulch for the substrate, or would paper towels work?
-Do you periodically remove the moms to weigh them?

Good job on your clutches. Good luck with them, too. :gj:

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Originally Posted by qinw

hi bro.. i intend to do maternally incubating too if i had a chance to breed my ball.. may i ask wat is inside a lay box? when shld i put the lay box in the main tank? wat size is suitable for a lay box? is lay box a must? sorry if i ask too much.. but is my first time.. better be safe than sorry.. :)

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Not a bro. ;)

When I made a laybox, it was a 31qt Sterilite tub and I lined it with about two inches of moistened sphagnum moss.
Here's a link to my a thread on my first experience with maternal incubation.

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Originally Posted by mykee

QT:

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"I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs."

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Actually, the exact opposite is true. Ball pythons are one of the few snakes that cannot alter the temps or humidity of their environment for the time that they are "babysitting" their eggs.

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I don't recall saying that? They can't alter temp through shivering like other pythons but they can leave their eggs to bask and return to brood after their body has warmed up. I have not observed this with my females, obviously, but I have read about it in an article on wild ball pythons. As for humidity, the females can alter the humidity within their coils by tightening or loosening them (I can see and feel light condensation on the female's belly and her eggs when I've peeked in to candle eggs and the rest of the tub is dry) and they can urinate within their coils if there is no moisture available to them. Thankfully, I have not noticed this with either of my females. At least, I don't think that I have. I would think that I would have noticed an odor and I haven't.

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Originally Posted by JEWSKIN

i can not wait to see ur results from the maternal incubation I'm going to take pics of lucy either sunday or monday and see if I cant get some candling pics for everyone

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Thanks. Today makes Day 52 and 49 for these two clutches so I should have babies in the next few days. I would be surprised if I don't have pips in the older clutch tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by ClarkT

You've really sparked my interest in doing this.

I'm planning on next year being the first year for breeding. I've got a few questions.

-How soon after laying did you start to offer food?
-Would you only use mulch for the substrate, or would paper towels work?
-Do you periodically remove the moms to weigh them?

Good job on your clutches. Good luck with them, too. :gj:

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Last year I did this and my female refused the meal I offered a couple weeks into incubation. Because I had read so many threads that said they wouldn't eat anything during incubation, I assumed that it was to be expected and didn't offer food again until her eggs hatched.

I offered a rat pup to both of my females last week because I had extras and figured I'd just see if they had any interest. One ignored hers but the other wolfed it down without any hesitation. I wish I had thought to offer food earlier on but I was still under the notion that they would just refuse whatever was offered. Another poster here, anatess, is maternally incubating and their female has apparently been eating every 10 days. I suppose it's all according to the female in question. From now on I will offer a small food item at least once every two weeks to my brooding females.

I don't think substrate really matters that much. I just like the look of cypress mulch and it doesn't mold when it gets wet like some other beddings. Both of my females have pushed all of the cypress aside and are laying on the plastic directly over the heat tape. Because they are in tubs, the humidity doesn't drop very low. The lowest reading I've ever gotten in one of my tubs was 60%.

I have only removed a female from her eggs once during this whole process and that was because one of her eggs had rolled out of her coils and I needed to place it back closer to its 'siblings' to make sure it would just tumble out again. With all of the eggs situated together, I put the female back in the tub and she gathered them all back up in her coils with no further incidents. I wouldn't remove a female from her clutch unless I felt it was really necessary. Too much stress could cause them to abandon the clutch.

I know a lot of keepers/breeders routinely weigh their females, but I don't. I'll probably weigh the babies when they hatch and I would also weigh any problem feeders I have to note any weight loss over a period of time, but I've never routinely weighed my snakes.



Thanks for the well wishes, guys! I hope to have babies and baby pics soon!

hi, any updates...? :)

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Originally Posted by qinw

hi, any updates...? :)

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None yet.. They're on Days 55 and 52 now.

Not much to report.. Dewshine's eggs are smoother now than before. The "snowflaking" isn't as obvious now. Before, they had odd shaped bumps all over the eggs and now they're smooth. Not sure why, but it's neat nonetheless.

Dewshine's behavior has changed dramatically over the past couple of days, too. She had been very laid back with me checking in on her and the eggs, but now she's suddenly hissy and more aggressive. I'm hoping that this is an indicator that she's feeling changes within the eggs and it's nearly time.

I had hoped that I would have babies this weekend, but it looks like that's not going to happen. This waiting is killing me!

Yesterday the same egg that had rolled out of Dewshine's clutch twice before (several weeks ago) was sitting outside of her coils again and, I decided to snip that egg. I regretted doing so immediately afterwards because I had told myself all along that I would wait.. yesterday was lousy and I guess I just wanted to assure myself that it was okay and candling wasn't enough. I still don't get my reasoning. Anyway, I placed the slit egg back in the pile with its mother and she coiled around the group. Today makes Day 59 for Dewshine and Day 56 for Ailynn. I checked on them after I got up this morning and found this:





http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8747/cimg5801.jpg
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6193/cimg5802v.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4672/cimg5803.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9513/cimg5804.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5205/cimg5805.jpg
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9488/cimg5806.jpg
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/282/cimg5807d.jpg
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7905/cimg5808t.jpg


The egg I snipped yesterday was blowing bubbles through the slit last time I checked, but hasn't come out yet. I didn't get a good pic of that egg because the mom is partially covering it. She's going into a shed cycle, which might explain some of her recent moodiness, and I didn't want to disturb her any more than I needed to to get a few pics of what was going on in there. So far, all I've seen look like normal babies.

I'll check on the moms again later today to see if I have any new pips or any babies out of the eggs.

Congrats so far! I can't wait to see how it turns out! I'm pretty convinced on trying this maternal incubation. :gj:

Man. A shed cycle and clutch of eggs. I bet she is cranky! Good luck with them, they are adorable!

Cranky is an understatement. lol

The egg I cut last night has a cute little head peeking out now. :)

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8999/cimg5827.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2183/cimg5828c.jpg

That's the egg that rolled out of the pile a few times.

Correct me if I'm not seeing this right, but...... looks like the pastel daddy is the winner. Good thing that little rollout developed great. She's going to be a stunner :)

YAY! Congrats Sandy! Can't wait to see more babies!

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Correct me if I'm not seeing this right, but...... looks like the pastel daddy is the winner. Good thing that little rollout developed great. She's going to be a stunner :)

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I was going to ask if anyone else thought that it might be a pastel baby. I can't get a good look at it yet. lol Just have to wait a little bit longer I guess. ;)

Huge congrats! Can't wait to see those babies once they come out !

It's really cool to see some threads shedding light on maternal incubation :gj:

All of Dewshine's eggs have pipped now but they all look like normals to me. I may change my mind when they leave their eggs, but I'm thinking 4 normal babies here. :)

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9359/cimg5836.jpg

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3900/cimg5837f.jpg



Ailynn currently has two eggs pipped and these also look like normals to me. :)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124231

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3199/cimg5834.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5073/cimg5841.jpg

I love this pic <3

AWESOME! I can't wait to do this :) I hope I get as good results as you got!

Congrats, :D

That is a super-cute picture. :bow:


dr del

Thanks, guys! :)

All babies out and accounted for.. Dewshine gave me 3.1 normals and Ailynn gave me 1.4 normals. I'm disappointed that there were no pastels among them, but it was only a slim chance anyway. I'm just happy with healthy babies. :)


Kyriel, my het pied, finally laid her clutch sometime earlier today. There are four eggs beneath her so now starts another countdown to hatching and I'm HOPING that at least one of them is holding a pied baby.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8601/cimg5884q.jpg

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/1900/cimg5885.jpg

Congrats on the healthy babies and my fingers are crossed for your pied project!

that is AWESOME!!!! way to go!!!! so happy to hear that!:gj:

I'm super jealous. That pic with the babies' heads poking out between mom's coils are awesome!

Yeah, my maternal incubation is not as successful, but I think it is as successful as it could be for 60 days. I continued to feed every 10 days and she didn't miss a meal and continued maternal incubation all the way to 60 days when she just all of a sudden stopped. I moved the eggs to the emergency incubator and they're still not out of the egg at 68 days.

I had my temps at 86 and humidity at 80 while maternally incubating. But, my temp probe was underneath the egg box - in between the egg box and the sterilite container the whole thing was housed in. The egg box is sitting directly on top of the heated section of the container without any bedding between the box and the floor of the container. But, inside the box is about an inch of bedding which mama snake built a "crater" in while laying on her eggs. Because of mama being in the egg box, I didn't risk putting the temp probe wire inside the box and potentially strangling her. So, it could possibly be that the temperature inside the egg box was well under 86 which is probably the cause of the eggs hatching very late. First timer, what can I say.

If I ever attempt breeding again (which I don't think I will in the near future if I have anything to say about it - hubby decided this breeding thing) I will for sure go with maternal incubation again but I'll be sure to get a temp gun and a helix-type thermostat instead of the el-cheapo reptitherm that I have.

I have to say, Quiet Tempest is my favorite breeder gal. She inspired me with maternal incubation even if I had a cooler incubator as well. I think it was a more educational experience for my kids and it fit perfectly with our holistic lifestyle.

QT, congratulations on another year of successful breeding. I love looking at your pics! I'm praying that you get a pied baby this time. 52 days waiting... man, that is a long time.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I'm super jealous. That pic with the babies' heads poking out between mom's coils are awesome!

Yeah, my maternal incubation is not as successful, but I think it is as successful as it could be for 60 days. I continued to feed every 10 days and she didn't miss a meal and continued maternal incubation all the way to 60 days when she just all of a sudden stopped. I moved the eggs to the emergency incubator and they're still not out of the egg at 68 days.

I had my temps at 86 and humidity at 80 while maternally incubating. But, my temp probe was underneath the egg box - in between the egg box and the sterilite container the whole thing was housed in. The egg box is sitting directly on top of the heated section of the container without any bedding between the box and the floor of the container. But, inside the box is about an inch of bedding which mama snake built a "crater" in while laying on her eggs. Because of mama being in the egg box, I didn't risk putting the temp probe wire inside the box and potentially strangling her. So, it could possibly be that the temperature inside the egg box was well under 86 which is probably the cause of the eggs hatching very late. First timer, what can I say.

If I ever attempt breeding again (which I don't think I will in the near future if I have anything to say about it - hubby decided this breeding thing) I will for sure go with maternal incubation again but I'll be sure to get a temp gun and a helix-type thermostat instead of the el-cheapo reptitherm that I have.

I have to say, Quiet Tempest is my favorite breeder gal. She inspired me with maternal incubation even if I had a cooler incubator as well. I think it was a more educational experience for my kids and it fit perfectly with our holistic lifestyle.

QT, congratulations on another year of successful breeding. I love looking at your pics! I'm praying that you get a pied baby this time. 52 days waiting... man, that is a long time.

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That's really sweet of you to say. :love: Thank you!

Maternal incubation is definitely a rewarding experience and I hope you enjoyed yours even if mom flaked out at the end. I think her leaving the eggs was a fluke and hopefully it won't happen this way if you maternally incubate clutches in the future. I think if you go this route next year this experience will help you be better prepared for anything/everything that goes along with it, too. :) If the temp was low, it could very well be that it's just going to take a while longer for babies to emerge. Just keep an eye on them and don't let them dry out.



I'm reeeeeeeally hoping for a pied of my own in this last clutch. Pieds are what got me interested in breeding balls in the first place and if I can produce one of my own I'll be ecstatic! :banana:

I just spent the last half hour reading this thread and looking at the videos.

I must say this is very informative, and the videos were awesome, thanks for sharing all this. Congratulations on the 2 clutches and I am crossing my fingers for you for at least 1 pied if not more!

I have been breeding mud turtles for a few months now, which is totally different, but I want to attempt to breed my BP's next year. I might give a try at maternal incubation with my normal female, it seems very natural and it's a very special experience that I would love to experiment.

Thanks for this thread :gj:

Thanks for the compliments. :)

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8539/cimg5972.jpg

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The pics are kinda lousy, but here we are on Day 10. I wish September would hurry up and get here.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

The pics are kinda lousy, but here we are on Day 10. I wish September would hurry up and get here.

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Man, QT! I don't know how you do that! We tried that with the pastel I got and there was no way we could stick a flashlight in there without a good vicious tagging.

42 more days to go and looking good! Keep the pics coming!

yay more babies! fingers crossed for ya

My girls are just really laid back, I guess? I don't handle them alot, but I do check in on them fairly regularly and they're accustomed to me messing around in their tubs for spot cleaning and water changing. Me checking out their clutches is just one more nuisance to put up with, I guess. :rolleyes: The only one that gave me any problems was my older female, Dewshine, and that was because she was going into a shed cycle and I didn't realize it. :oops: She would puff up and hiss so loudly that I jumped a few times when candling her eggs a week or so before they actually started pipping. Poor thing had to deal with being deep in blue while her clutch was hatching out. lol

Here's a candling shot of each egg. Currently on day 20.


http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/3860/cimg6036.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4797/cimg6033wv.jpg

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1082/cimg6034k.jpg

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9602/cimg6035p.jpg


I tried to get video but the quality was really lousy. I can't figure out what settings I was using on the other candling videos and everything is so blurry that it would just give you a headache to watch it. I only caught a glimpse of one baby moving while I was candling, too. It fluttered just momentarily and then stayed so low in the egg that I really couldn't see anything else besides its outline. *sigh* I'll try again in another week or so and hopefully catch them at a more active point during the day. ;)


Can someone please remind me at what point during incubation does pattern begin to develop?

Day 35, I believe I read that on another post

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Originally Posted by llovelace

Day 35, I believe I read that on another post

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Thanks! I know I'm going to be anxiously looking for possible pieds when candling this clutch. :P

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

Can someone please remind me at what point during incubation does pattern begin to develop?

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Sweet pics :gj:

Here is day 30ish :nerd:
http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/s...g?t=1278987382

Thanks much! Now I'm going to be straining even harder to see what's in there ten days from now. lol

You will be able to tell pieds for sure by the sudden void of pattern and or erratic pattern. You need to get pretty low on the egg in the beginning to see the snake.

How fun :clap:

Between the blurred images and Kyriel sticking her head into almost every video clip I got last night, it's really hard to say what's what... I don't want to get my hopes up, but I think I saw what looked like possible pied patterns in a couple of the eggs. Of course, they may have been laying belly up and I just didn't see the dark areas of pattern. It's still early yet and I don't want to go counting my babies before they've hatched just to be disappointed later. I'll check again in another week, I guess, and see if things are any easier to see under the light.

I wish it was September already. :rolleye2:


http://www.youtube.com/v/CmbetTk0I_I


http://www.youtube.com/v/nH_k1zJoIZY


http://www.youtube.com/v/hhZj70-ewSg


* I can't figure out how to embed video now..

Hi,

We added a little button to the right of the insert image button and it works the same way by creating a pop up window to put your link into when you click it.

It looks like this: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/image...itor/video.png


dr del

Very cool stuff, I hope you get your pied!

I tried that before. It gave the [video] tags but still wasn't working for me. I found my mistake, though. I didn't have the correct url for the videos. Thanks, Dr Del!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH_k1...layer_embedded



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmbetTk0I_I&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhZj70-ewSg&feature=channel

This thread is entirely exhilarating! I have been looking for detailed logs of maternal incubation for quite some time. I entirely agree with you, I had watched a female have her clutch of 4 removed and the sheer panic that ensued tugged on my heart strings. Why take the eggs away from a committed mother? Besides watching and understanding the natural maternal incubation of the python you plan to breed and continue to breed (if you choose to commit to ball pythons) should be the first and for most step before creation of your own incubator and mass breeding. At least this is in my current approach...Green behind the ears I have purchased my first female cinny a few days ago too~ My plan is to pair her with my high gold male. I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. Would you mind if I asked a few questions though?

Currently your BPs are housed in a rack system, correct? Forgive me if this has been asked but what size are your tubs? Besides the cypress mulch and the water bowl there isn't anything else in the tubs? It seems simple. My tubs seem to have a failing humidity point however. I must mist it down several times a day to keep it up, I think it's possible that the lids I use are not tight enough to trap humidity. Are you using a DIY tub system? If not, what is it?

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Originally Posted by bokuza

This thread is entirely exhilarating! I have been looking for detailed logs of maternal incubation for quite some time. I entirely agree with you, I had watched a female have her clutch of 4 removed and the sheer panic that ensued tugged on my heart strings. Why take the eggs away from a committed mother? Besides watching and understanding the natural maternal incubation of the python you plan to breed and continue to breed (if you choose to commit to ball pythons) should be the first and for most step before creation of your own incubator and mass breeding. At least this is in my current approach...Green behind the ears I have purchased my first female cinny a few days ago too~ My plan is to pair her with my high gold male. I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. Would you mind if I asked a few questions though?

Currently your BPs are housed in a rack system, correct? Forgive me if this has been asked but what size are your tubs? Besides the cypress mulch and the water bowl there isn't anything else in the tubs? It seems simple. My tubs seem to have a failing humidity point however. I must mist it down several times a day to keep it up, I think it's possible that the lids I use are not tight enough to trap humidity. Are you using a DIY tub system? If not, what is it?

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I don't mind at all.

Last year I kept my female in a 40g breeder tank but I've always had issues with keeping humidity up in glass cages so I gave her a lay box (31qt sterilite tub lined with sphagnum moss and hole cut in the lid for easy entry and exit for the female). Here's a link to last year's clutch.

This year, the majority of my snakes are kept in either 32qt or 41qt sterilite brand tubs, depending on their size. There are hide boxes for juvenile snakes but none for the older ones - just the substrate (I use cypress mulch, shredded aspen, or sanichips.. whatever is readily available at the moment, really) and water bowl in those tubs. I used a wood burning wand to burn holes along the front and sides of the tubs for ventilation and because of a miscalculation when we were building our rack, the tubs must be shelved with lids on. It's a minor inconvenience when I need to get into a tub to refill water, feed, or otherwise check in on snakes but I think humidity is better trapped with lidded tubs so I'm not going to complain. The humidity in my tubs seems to linger around 70-80%. The snakes seem to do well in either living arrangement so long as the humidity isn't dropping below 60%, but I think those in the tubs are probably more comfortable - they always have complete sheds and their skin feels supple rather than dry/tough like some of the snakes in the glass enclosures.

The eggs are starting to dimple already so it makes candling a little more difficult.. The quality isn't much better, but I was hoping to get some opinions on these. Kyriel didn't really want to budge so that I could get any worthwhile clips of the others, but I did get clips of two of the eggs.. Can I get your opinions? It's hard for me to make much out of it. I would really, really like to see at least one pied baby come out of one of these eggs but I'm not going to hold my breath.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_gZ_6rdaAU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNE31XyX5Yg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bokuza

This thread is entirely exhilarating! I have been looking for detailed logs of maternal incubation for quite some time. I entirely agree with you, I had watched a female have her clutch of 4 removed and the sheer panic that ensued tugged on my heart strings. Why take the eggs away from a committed mother? Besides watching and understanding the natural maternal incubation of the python you plan to breed and continue to breed (if you choose to commit to ball pythons) should be the first and for most step before creation of your own incubator and mass breeding. At least this is in my current approach...Green behind the ears I have purchased my first female cinny a few days ago too~ My plan is to pair her with my high gold male. I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. Would you mind if I asked a few questions though?

Currently your BPs are housed in a rack system, correct? Forgive me if this has been asked but what size are your tubs? Besides the cypress mulch and the water bowl there isn't anything else in the tubs? It seems simple. My tubs seem to have a failing humidity point however. I must mist it down several times a day to keep it up, I think it's possible that the lids I use are not tight enough to trap humidity. Are you using a DIY tub system? If not, what is it?

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About the humidity, as long as you have a bowl in there the humidity around the bowl she be good enuff so you might want to watch out.

As for QT keep up the good work and thanks for all your advice

Awesome thread! Good luck with the final 2 weeks!

Still no pipping but I got a new pic of her with her clutch tonight.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7716/cimg6128.jpg
Kyriel on Day 54

any updates ? I find this fascinating :)

Nope, no pips yet. I candled them last night and the babies are filling the eggs up to the point that I can't really tell what I'm looking at now. I keep pestering the mother at least once a day to check for slits in the eggs but nothing yet.

Found this thread for the first time today - just in time for the climactic ending!

I'll be breeding my het pieds for the first time next month, so I know a little bit of the anticipation you're feeling. Here's hoping you've got pieds in there! ;)

Exciting stuff! Thanks for sharing. :)