Habitat vs Tupperwear

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Originally Posted by WakoNako

I only have the one BP right now and he's in a tank/habitat.

I'm not have difficulties with keeping temperature and humidity right.

The cool side of the tank is at 78-82 and the hot side varies between 90 and 95.

We have a small coconut hide on the warm side and then a fake vine on the other than he likes to curl up underneath.

I use an infrared lamp for heat so it can be left on at night on cool nights.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...o/P4180073.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...o/P4180072.jpg

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You are only going to get an ambient air temp with those being so high and not a very accurate reading!

Yep. I've learnt that from the good people on this forum.
I'm going to be adding digital thermometers lower down once i have the money.

I'll probably keep those in there though, he seems to like climbing on them during the night.

The two pet ball pythons in my home are in large sterilite bins. Glass tanks are just inferior for making a good ball python viv.

If you want to go pricier, you could buy a Vision cage, or one of the other cages made of expanded PVC, etc. They're all better choices than glass tanks, which are hard to keep warm and properly humidified.

When I just had one she was in a big glass tank. It was awful! She never shed properly because keeping it humid was a nightmare and I couldn't get a good temperature gradient.

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Originally Posted by Pandora

I'm not surprised to see a vast majority of people on here go in favor of the tubs.

In my honest opinion, the tubs vs tanks option is just as subjective as people's taste in music or food, etc. etc... it's whatever works for the owner

My boyfriend and I live together and we've both got 2 ball pythons of our own. Personally, as a couple living in a 2-floor 3-bedroom house, we can afford the space to comfortably house 4 ball pythons in tanks, and manage to keep their temps and humidity regulated with little to no effort.

However, a lot of people who own several snakes, or breed snakes, would obviously need the convenience of a rack/tub system, and that's completely understandable.

In the argument of the snake's "happiness" with one or the other... I'm not so sure there's really much of a difference. Snakes are very basic-needs animals and as long as they've got heat, water, food, hides, a clean environment, and enough ground room to comfortably move around, I don't see the difference between plastic and glass. To be totally honest... by the sounds of it, that's exactly what's being argued.

Nobody who takes their animals as seriously as the owners on this website would sacrifice the fundamental needs of their pet by putting them in a tupperware container, if it really came down to that. However, that's not the case...

At the end of the day, if we're going to have an argument like this, let's start one on mozzarella vs. cheddar, and rock vs. rap... now THERE'S something to agrue :)

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I vote mozzarella..... just because i love string cheese..... haha oh and i refuse to vote on the container issue. I keep my boys in sterilite 34qts and they are both very content.... does tupperware make something big enough to put snakes in? hmmm..... i think im going to go buy some string cheese now. oh and ROCK all the way.

TBH space is space. You snake doesn't care if its in a lovely looking wooden viv, or a sacure tub. Aslong as they have somewhere warm and dark, a bowl of fresh water, a weekly meal and maybe something to climb on, I don't think they care.

Vivs are meerly for our benifit, they are nice to look at.

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

I've never pretended to like bins for animals. Sure the tanks are more work, but they can have a better quality of life in then and not just exist in a plastic world. The wild guys at least have a choice to hide in a hole, but they also have the choice to come out when they want also. Pet snakes don't have any choices other than what we give them and I just do not agree in a sterile plasticine lifestyle for any living creature.

:taz: Rant Over :taz:

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then put your snake in a glass tank or an African termite mound

I still want to see a custom Viv designed to look like a termite mound, lol.

By Bob Clark. One of the leading snake specialists..

"While the main purpose of a cage is to contain the snake, it must also enclose a suitable environment for its inhabitant. Proper temperature and humidity levels are essential for maintaining a healthy ball python. The ball python comes from a more arid environment than most pythons. Even so, it still requires a fairly high level of humidity. Ball pythons spend most of their time in burrows where it's more likely to be a little damp. When they leave, it's usually at night when temperatures are cooler and the level of moisture in the air is greater. The wild snakes do not expose themselves to the dry conditions that their natural environment presents. In captivity, when given a choice, they will do the same."

http://www.bobclark.com/aAN_02.asp

Hmmm... They do not expose theirselves to their natural habitat in the wild.. Interesting... Maybe thats why the people that go hunting for BPs for export never find them anywhere other than in their burrow...

Asthetically speaking, a "habitat" as you put it, is only for you. NOT the snake. Think realistically. A BP is actually going to be more nervous in an aquarium. Sure you can fill it with cool stuff to make it feel more secure but then you just made it into something for you to look at. If your snake comes out alot when you can see it and roams around, this is a sign of stress for BPs. You're not talking about a retic here.

You make it sound like a plastic tub is a horrible life and the snakes are not happy. That if they had a choice they would choose a tank over a tub.. That my friend, is completely wrong. We dont care if you like it or not. People who own tree pythons have branches or cage perches for their snakes and foliage. Yes even the big breeders who have alot of them. Because they know it is what is best and most natural for the snake. Racks are not cruel and if those of us who have racks could read our snakes minds we would tell you that they are very happy and healthy. They feel safe, secure, they shed perfectly and they eat. SO please stop it with your loaded posts. We are aware of what you like and dont like. We are also aware of the natural history of these snakes and we know what is most comfortable and natural for them.

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I've never pretended to like bins for animals. Sure the tanks are more work, but they can have a better quality of life in then and not just exist in a plastic world. The wild guys at least have a choice to hide in a hole, but they also have the choice to come out when they want also. Pet snakes don't have any choices other than what we give them and I just do not agree in a sterile plasticine lifestyle for any living creature.

Rant Over

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I dont believe you actually understand the workings of your snakes. Our snakes dont look at their tub, custom enclosure, or aquarium and think it is boring or aesthetically pleasing. All they really "want" is their needs met. They are survival machines. As long as their heat, humidity, privacy, space hunger, and thirst are met, they are pretty much perfectly content. Whether it is provided by a tank with a heat light or a rack with tubs and heat tape. Our snakes have almost no cognitive thought, and you need to realize that. If you think your snake is loving its enclosure because its roaming all the time, then you just have a stressed out BP as stated before.

Our snakes, in reality, are just like new born babies. They dont care what their home looks like. Whether it be a cave, wooden shack or mansion, they just dont care. They are acting out of reflexes and instinct. They have little to no cognitive thought. As long as the babies and the snakes needs are met they are content. So we who keep our snakes in tubs are doing great things for our snakes.

Dont come on here bashing us who use tubs. WE ARE DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR OUR SNAKES. No matter how much you disagree, plainly you are wrong in this instance. You are basically bashing a huge portion of the community.

You are truly over anthropomorphising. You are treating your BP as if it was you. Your BP doesnt care what its enclosure looks like. All it needs is its needs met, and in your aquarium style habitats, their needs in the heat and humidity department are most likely fluctuating on a regular basis.

I used to believe that terrariums and the like were best for snakes, but I've since learned differently. I now house the majority of my snakes in tubs. They seem happier, if you can even guage a snake's happiness in terms we could understand. The snakes I house in tubs have silkier skin and just look better than the ones I keep in tanks. Those that are in tanks right now are only there because I don't have spare room in my rack at the moment.

Regardless of my position on the matter, I am disturbed by the way this argument is taking place. The subjectiveness in judging where a snake is happier works both ways. I see a lot of pro-tub people saying that the snake is happier in a tub, and that the tank people are not really taking into account how the snake feels. To ridicule someone for trying to judge a snake's feelings (or ignore them), and then make an assumption that your method is actually what makes it happy, does not make much sense to me. Having just made a point that the tank people cannot possibly know what makes a snake happy, and then argue that you are better at providing that happiness, is a very flawed argument.

Trying to decide what the snake "likes" best is futile.

At the same time, I think the language is what is holding me (and maybe everyone) up on this argument. I believe that when the pro-tub people talk about the snake's happiness they are trying to allude to their well-being, as opposed to emotional feelings. To me, the two camps are arguing either 1. two different things (emotional states v. physical well-being) or 2. the same thing, but in terms that the other side cannot (or refuses to) understand. I feel that we cannot have a meaningful discussion on the matter until the bases for assessing the well-being are objective, as well as defined. Until this happens, we are just sitting here spinning the proverbial wheels.

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Rhetoric aside, I do not see the difference between the two if you can maintain the snake's well-being and quality of life.

My Bottom line: As long as you can provide things like proper temperature gradient, humidity, snug shelter, water, etc. that closely approximate what the snake's physiology and instinctual behavior can take advantage of, the construction and composition of the container does not matter.

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Originally Posted by viperbry

Rhetoric aside, I do not see the difference between the two if you can maintain the snake's well-being and quality of life.

My Bottom line: As long as you can provide things like proper temperature gradient, humidity, snug shelter, water, etc. that closely approximate what the snake's physiology and instinctual behavior can take advantage of, the construction and composition of the container does not matter.

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:gj: :gj: :gj:
Exactly!

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Originally Posted by viperbry

At the same time, I think the language is what is holding me (and maybe everyone) up on this argument. I believe that when the pro-tub people talk about the snake's happiness they are trying to allude to their well-being, as opposed to emotional feelings. To me, the two camps are arguing either 1. two different things (emotional states v. physical well-being) or 2. the same thing, but in terms that the other side cannot (or refuses to) understand. I feel that we cannot have a meaningful discussion on the matter until the bases for assessing the well-being are objective, as well as defined. Until this happens, we are just sitting here spinning the proverbial wheels.

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I am refering to the snakes well-being. I personally do not think that snakes have feelings, so can't be happy or sad.

You can have the proper environment (and this includes temps, humidity, and hiding places) in a tub, a tank, AND a fancy cage! Period.

Tubs are not 'evil' or 'bad' for snakes. But neither are tanks. It can all work IF you put the right work and care into making them proper homes for a BP. The whole issue here, other than the 'feelings' thing which is moot, is aesthetics...and it shouldn't be an issue. Yes, it's nice to have a pretty cage with real plants and fancy hides, but most BPs just don't need or want that.
The most important thing to think of when readying a home for a BP, be it tub, tank, or cage, is getting it to hold the things that snake needs most - i.e. proper stable temperatures, the right level of humidity, and good secure hiding spots.

Now please... stop bashing each other and calling 'Tubs rule', or 'Tanks are the only way' and let's get back to some good snake keeping.

I do use tanks. However, as long as my little guys are shedding in one piece, eating regularly and healthy I don't see the need to change it. If the quality of life I'm trying to provide hinders I wouldn't hesitate to change to tubs.

IMHO, both are a great choice as long as you can provide what the snake needs. :)

I too believe that tanks and cages can be made into a good environment. In the 2 threads I posted in I made that clear. My problem is bashing the people who do use tubs. Those of us who use them dont bash people who do not. As long as the BPs needs are met like stated before. So why bash us? I was showing why tubs are not bad at all and even very beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

You can have the proper environment (and this includes temps, humidity, and hiding places) in a tub, a tank, AND a fancy cage! Period.

Tubs are not 'evil' or 'bad' for snakes. But neither are tanks. It can all work IF you put the right work and care into making them proper homes for a BP. The whole issue here, other than the 'feelings' thing which is moot, is aesthetics...and it shouldn't be an issue. Yes, it's nice to have a pretty cage with real plants and fancy hides, but most BPs just don't need or want that.
The most important thing to think of when readying a home for a BP, be it tub, tank, or cage, is getting it to hold the things that snake needs most - i.e. proper stable temperatures, the right level of humidity, and good secure hiding spots.

Now please... stop bashing each other and calling 'Tubs rule', or 'Tanks are the only way' and let's get back to some good snake keeping.

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Please pay attention---I don't include breeders in the tub debate. It's usually stated that way in the begining. Breeders, especially large ones don't have the option.

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

I think you all know I hate it when snakes have to live in plastic bins. For those who just have a snake or two I want to make a poll to find out if you made a nice comfy habitat for your snake to live in or you dump it in plasticwear for convience sake.

Breeders don't have to reply. That's a whole different thing.

For those how use a habitat you can post pictures here too if you want.

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How's living under a bridge working out for you?

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Originally Posted by Arsinoe

Please pay attention---I don't include breeders in the tub debate. It's usually stated that way in the begining. Breeders, especially large ones don't have the option.

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I believe that must have been a misquote...since I never mentioned breeders being in or out. I think that anyone, breeder with 100 snakes or newbie with 1, can keep their snakes in any home if it's set up properly.

I switched to tubs shortly after the first snake I owned.
With all the hassle of bad shedding and issues with keeping the temperatures where they should be I finally gave up and went to tubs.
My snakes have eaten WAY better, shed WAY better, and seemed WAY happier than any I kept in tanks.
Tanks may look nice, but in general are too tough to maintain proper husbandry in for ball pythons.

Even if I only owned one ball python I'd use a tub ;)

It's a shame everyone takes such an immediate defensive attitude toward how they choose to keep their snakes. After-all, it is a personal decision based on what the keeper believes is the best housing he/she can (or chooses to) provide. That will maintain the ideal environment for the particular species of snake being kept.

There is a lot that can be said and it is because we live in a country with freedom of speech, that everyone can have their own opinion. Perception is different with everybody and the only person that is upset by another persons comments is the one that perceives the comment to be a direct assault towards them or their methods. In this manner, they are questioning themselves and allowing someone else (who may or may not possess similar knowledge) to make them think they could somehow be wrong. The biggest difficulty most people face is overcoming their own egos. This is not intended to be criticism, but is instead intended to point out the simplicity that we often overlook.

:2cent: Now for my opinion: I think plastic is much easier for me to maintain because I do not have a dedicated "snake room" with regulated temp/humidity. I also believe it is easier for me to clean because of the lighter (than glass) weight of the enclosure. I almost forgot, it is pretty easy for me to drill holes in plastic to run wires for lighting or temperature probes, or for additional venting to maintain proper humidity levels.

I however, prefer the look of display style housing, but my snakes could probably care less since they only see the inside of their hides anyway :sleep: This is easily remedied for me by any of several vendors that offer such housing for sale for a reasonable fee. The same vendors also offer other plastic style housing for a similar fee as well. If I were a breeder or had a larger collection (as others do), I might opt for a more efficiently designed way to house many reptiles comfortably and worry less about what it looked like for me.

The greatest part about having the freedom of choice, is using it :salute:

I'm not necessarily against either, as long as the snake is given ample space. (The only sort of enclosure I am against is glass.) Tubs are practical and easily maintained. I do prefer habitats simply because my babies are so gorgeous and I love showing them off. :D :D