14 months since this guy ate....

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Originally Posted by rabernet

It's an antibiotic, and it also sometimes acts as an appetite stimulant.

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Yup, my vet looked in her "exotic animal medicine" book and it listed dosages for Flagyl and mentioned that it often acts as an appetite stimulant. She gave my snake 1cc (100mg) by mouth via a syringe with a small feeding tube attached. The snake didn't really care for the procedure but he held it down.

Now I figure I'll wait till this weekend and offer him an ASF again. The vet and I decided that if that didn't work we would try another dose next week.

From one of your earlier posts I noticed you didn't leave the ASF in with the snake for very long. I would leave it in for several hours or even all night occasionally checking to make sure the ASF isn't getting "hungry" if you know what I mean. I have some snakes that take hours to eat but always do. ALso if you are worried about it try leaving a dead mouse in over night That works for a few of mine. Seems that they prefer the smell of dead rotting flesh. (well not literally rotting)

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

I'm sorry, but the day when a 30 gram mouse can take down a 400 gram snake with a few nibbles, let me know.

As I said, at no point did I feel like his life was in danger from the mouse, and it was call for drastic measures. I have not fed live since, and he is finally eatting more then 1 mouse a week. It was, and still is an uphill battle after 7 months without food, and hes still half the size he should be at his age.

But, this is not about me, this is about Wax's snake. I'm sorry we've been getting so off topic.

At any rate, hes not eatting anything, live, f/t, or p/k? Have you noticed him drinking? and which tub is he located in? Its a strange question, but if its getting cool in your house and hes a lower tub, his temps (and humidity, for that matter) can be off. I'm not expert though, just a thought.

On top of the flagyl, you could ask for a dose of b-vitamins, that should increase his appetite.

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The mouse with this snake was only in with it for a few hours...don't underestimate a 30 gram mouse....

http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/b/jbuncc/d...ed%20live1.JPG

im suprised ppl will still say to leave a mouse in with out any supervision for long periods of time. a mouse or a rat can chew thru all kinds of stuff and can gnaw thru a snake in no time. as for ur non eating snake, i have a female who went for a year, then she laid 6 good eggs with no slugs, keep trying... she went back on feed after i found she would take a frozen thawed if i tucked it in with her in her hide and left it over night.... FROZEN THAWED... not live, do not leave live rats in the cage overnight with ur snake and please do not listen to the people who think its ok.... its not. i also breed asf rats and it works the same with pre killing them and leaving it in her hide.

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

The mouse with this snake was only in with it for a few hours...don't underestimate a 30 gram mouse....

http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/b/jbuncc/d...ed%20live1.JPG

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No, the mouse with that snake was in for a few DAYS with no food and water provided - so of course it's going to eat the only thing available to it. This picture has been mis-used so many times to warn people against live feeding WITHOUT giving the proper background.

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Originally Posted by irishanaconda

im suprised ppl will still say to leave a mouse in with out any supervision for long periods of time. a mouse or a rat can chew thru all kinds of stuff and can gnaw thru a snake in no time. as for ur non eating snake, i have a female who went for a year, then she laid 6 good eggs with no slugs, keep trying... she went back on feed after i found she would take a frozen thawed if i tucked it in with her in her hide and left it over night.... FROZEN THAWED... not live, do not leave live rats in the cage overnight with ur snake and please do not listen to the people who think its ok.... its not. i also breed asf rats and it works the same with pre killing them and leaving it in her hide.

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I agree with not leaving rats or mice in overnight - especially with no food or water available to them. But a rat or mouse isn't going to just randomly decide "oh - I think I'll go gnaw on you for a bit", it's just not how they behave, especially a well fed, well hydrated rodent.

The longest that I personally leave prey in with my animals is 30 minutes, any longer than that, I feel that the snake is more stressed by the prey's presence than not.

yep id agree, 30 min should be plenty. if u want to leave a rat in for a long time id suggest putting in a dead rat, some will actually take it that way

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Originally Posted by wax32

I'm hoping Flagyl will work for him like everyone seems to think it will. :D And I'm also hoping my vet isn't chicken of snakes. I don't think she will be, she seems pretty together in the 7 years I've been going there with my mammals. :D

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What in the (insert word here) are you doing going to this Vet? Look at the list and find a good Qualified VET next time!!!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wax32

Yup, my vet looked in her "exotic animal medicine" book and it listed dosages for Flagyl and mentioned that it often acts as an appetite stimulant. She gave my snake 1cc (100mg) by mouth via a syringe with a small feeding tube attached. The snake didn't really care for the procedure but he held it down.

Now I figure I'll wait till this weekend and offer him an ASF again. The vet and I decided that if that didn't work we would try another dose next week.

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This is why you should have never gone to her. A "Qualified Vet" would already know about Flagyl. At least she didn't do anything crazy with your snake.

What you need to do now is put a hide in with your snake and feed it at night. Just leave some rodent food in with a well fed healthy small rodent and leave it alone. If the rodent is fed well, and you do what Big Gunns says...you CAN leave it in overnight. The risk is minimal. You should wait about a week for the Flagyl to work.

You MUST WAIT A WEEK BEFORE YOU TRY AND FEED IT!!!!!!!! It looks like you are, but this is critical. Don't mess with the snake at all during this time.

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Originally Posted by irishanaconda

im suprised ppl will still say to leave a mouse in with out any supervision for long periods of time. a mouse or a rat can chew thru all kinds of stuff and can gnaw thru a snake in no time. as for ur non eating snake, i have a female who went for a year, then she laid 6 good eggs with no slugs, keep trying... she went back on feed after i found she would take a frozen thawed if i tucked it in with her in her hide and left it over night.... FROZEN THAWED... not live, do not leave live rats in the cage overnight with ur snake and please do not listen to the people who think its ok.... its not. i also breed asf rats and it works the same with pre killing them and leaving it in her hide.

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Every single large breeder in the bizz that feeds live rodents leaves them in overnight..... all the time. Of course there is some risk, but if the rodent is well fed, and it's only one night, you should be fine. You must get your rodents from someone who sells feeders though. All rodents are not created equal. Some are evil, mean, chewing machines, and can hurt your snake or cage.

Flagyl really hasn't been shown to stimulate appetite in trials. It's actually an irritant in the digestive system and tends to put animals off feed. What it does is kill protozoa. Undiagnosed protozoal infections can certainly be a cause of anorexia in reptiles.
So, people give flagyl, the animal starts eating, and they believe the flagyl gave them back their appetite. Not exactly what's happening.
This is why it doesn't always work, of course. You might as well add in some panacur and do a total parasite clearing, while you're at it. It's hard on the snake to use these worming meds, but if it works, it's because the snake actually had parasites.

Or, assist-feed the snake, obtain a fecal sample, and have the vet do a proper fecal float check to determine if anything's going on. This would be better for the animal than shotgunning it with worming meds. If it has, say, tapeworm--that requires a different medication. So does coccidia. Panacur kills worms, and flagyl kills protoza. So, that's 4 different types of meds (at least). It would be best to use only what's needed.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Flagyl really hasn't been shown to stimulate appetite in trials. It's actually an irritant in the digestive system and tends to put animals off feed. What it does is kill protozoa. Undiagnosed protozoal infections can certainly be a cause of anorexia in reptiles.
So, people give flagyl, the animal starts eating, and they believe the flagyl gave them back their appetite. Not exactly what's happening.
This is why it doesn't always work, of course. You might as well add in some panacur and do a total parasite clearing, while you're at it. It's hard on the snake to use these worming meds, but if it works, it's because the snake actually had parasites.

Or, assist-feed the snake, obtain a fecal sample, and have the vet do a proper fecal float check to determine if anything's going on. This would be better for the animal than shotgunning it with worming meds. If it has, say, tapeworm--that requires a different medication. So does coccidia. Panacur kills worms, and flagyl kills protoza. So, that's 4 different types of meds (at least). It would be best to use only what's needed.

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There is some truth in what you say(getting a fecal)....BUT. Big Gunns will tell you that 9 out of ten times Flagyl will get the animal eating again. It will however possibly put an animal "off feed", if it was eating good to begin with. It's weird, because it has the opposite effect a lot of the time when animals are good feeders. Flagyl has saved the life of many of Big Gunns snakes. It's usually the male that was breeding himself to death and wouldn't eat.

It is true that in all cases like this it's best to do a fecal...BUT...Big Gunns experience tells him that 99 outta 100 times Flagyl will help this snake. It was bought from Baily, so it's not like it's a wild caught adult that's gonna be loaded with parasites.

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

From one of your earlier posts I noticed you didn't leave the ASF in with the snake for very long. I would leave it in for several hours or even all night occasionally checking to make sure the ASF isn't getting "hungry" if you know what I mean. I have some snakes that take hours to eat but always do. ALso if you are worried about it try leaving a dead mouse in over night That works for a few of mine. Seems that they prefer the smell of dead rotting flesh. (well not literally rotting)

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I've left dead mice and or small rats in with him no joy. Good idea though! On my next attempt (after he settles down from the vet visit I'll leave the ASF in with him longer... checking on him to be safe. :D

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Originally Posted by irishanaconda

im suprised ppl will still say to leave a mouse in with out any supervision for long periods of time. a mouse or a rat can chew thru all kinds of stuff and can gnaw thru a snake in no time. as for ur non eating snake, i have a female who went for a year, then she laid 6 good eggs with no slugs, keep trying... she went back on feed after i found she would take a frozen thawed if i tucked it in with her in her hide and left it over night.... FROZEN THAWED... not live, do not leave live rats in the cage overnight with ur snake and please do not listen to the people who think its ok.... its not. i also breed asf rats and it works the same with pre killing them and leaving it in her hide.

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That will be my next thing to try if he doesn't eat the live ASF next time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Flagyl really hasn't been shown to stimulate appetite in trials. It's actually an irritant in the digestive system and tends to put animals off feed. What it does is kill protozoa. Undiagnosed protozoal infections can certainly be a cause of anorexia in reptiles.
So, people give flagyl, the animal starts eating, and they believe the flagyl gave them back their appetite. Not exactly what's happening.
This is why it doesn't always work, of course. You might as well add in some panacur and do a total parasite clearing, while you're at it. It's hard on the snake to use these worming meds, but if it works, it's because the snake actually had parasites.

Or, assist-feed the snake, obtain a fecal sample, and have the vet do a proper fecal float check to determine if anything's going on. This would be better for the animal than shotgunning it with worming meds. If it has, say, tapeworm--that requires a different medication. So does coccidia. Panacur kills worms, and flagyl kills protoza. So, that's 4 different types of meds (at least). It would be best to use only what's needed.

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Yup. I read up on flagyl a bit. I understand it doesn't really stimulate the appetite so much as get rid of the problem that had them not eating... call it what you will but if it works it works! If this doesn't work panacur et al. will be the next try.

I'm thinking tapeworms wouldn't go this long without dying out considering the snake isn't eating? Or would it just eat the snake from the inside out? Either way it seems like a long time!

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

What in the (insert word here) are you doing going to this Vet? Look at the list and find a good Qualified VET next time!!!!!!!!

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:rolleye2: I looked at the vet list: not a single one in Louisiana, let alone New Orleans. You'd think living in a big city we would have some, but they seem to have left after Hurricane Katrina. The only "exotic" vet still listed in our area (in the local phone book) couldn't even properly diagnose problems I had with a rabbit (which he assured me he knew ALL about!) I brought to him. I'm sure not bringing him a snake.

As it turns out my vet (who is part of a larger multi-doctor office) has no problems with snakes. The over-all practice doesn't treat snakes in general because of "liability issues" since they aren't specifically "exotic" designated. This specific doctor saw me and my snake on her "lunch break" and actually enjoys dealing with snakes. Would I necessarily bring her a snake that I needed diagnosed? I dunno, but I sure trust her to put a tube down his mouth and give him some Flagyl! :D

This doctor is also net-savvy and doesn't mind looking things up or calling someone if she isn't sure about something. :D

Well you should ask for b-vitamins too! They are an appetite stimulant for sure. You can ask them to include it with the next dose of whatever (if needed.)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The longest that I personally leave prey in with my animals is 30 minutes, any longer than that, I feel that the snake is more stressed by the prey's presence than not.

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This is why I removed the ASF last attempt after only about an hour the snake was acting stressed and had just balled up. It was obvious it wasn't even checking out the ASF anymore (which it did right at first).

Whew! I think I answered them all. Thanks so much for all the interest and advice guys and gals! This is why I like this forum. At this point I am just waiting for the Flagyl to (maybe?) work it's magic and then I'll try feeding him this Sunday most likely.

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Originally Posted by Bleepr

Well you should ask for b-vitamins too! They are an appetite stimulant for sure. You can ask them to include it with the next dose of whatever (if needed.)

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I actually meant to do that last time and I forgot. If it's a no-go this weekend she already said I can bring him back in for another go. I'll ask her about that then.

By the way, did I mention that the visit didn't cost me anything at all? I promised to buy some candy bars from her kid for the school money drive. :D

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Originally Posted by wax32

Yup. I read up on flagyl a bit. I understand it doesn't really stimulate the appetite so much as get rid of the problem that had them not eating... call it what you will but if it works it works! If this doesn't work panacur et al. will be the next try.

I'm thinking tapeworms wouldn't go this long without dying out considering the snake isn't eating? Or would it just eat the snake from the inside out? Either way it seems like a long time!

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Yes it probably would, which is one reason BG only said to use Flagyl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wax32

Whew! I think I answered them all. Thanks so much for all the interest and advice guys and gals! This is why I like this forum. At this point I am just waiting for the Flagyl to (maybe?) work it's magic and then I'll try feeding him this Sunday most likely.

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Sunday night.

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Originally Posted by wax32

I actually meant to do that last time and I forgot. If it's a no-go this weekend she already said I can bring him back in for another go. I'll ask her about that then.

By the way, did I mention that the visit didn't cost me anything at all? I promised to buy some candy bars from her kid for the school money drive. :D

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She didn't charge you because she felt guilty for not really knowing what to do.;):D

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Flagyl really hasn't been shown to stimulate appetite in trials. It's actually an irritant in the digestive system and tends to put animals off feed. What it does is kill protozoa. Undiagnosed protozoal infections can certainly be a cause of anorexia in reptiles.
So, people give flagyl, the animal starts eating, and they believe the flagyl gave them back their appetite. Not exactly what's happening.
This is why it doesn't always work, of course. You might as well add in some panacur and do a total parasite clearing, while you're at it. It's hard on the snake to use these worming meds, but if it works, it's because the snake actually had parasites.

Or, assist-feed the snake, obtain a fecal sample, and have the vet do a proper fecal float check to determine if anything's going on. This would be better for the animal than shotgunning it with worming meds. If it has, say, tapeworm--that requires a different medication. So does coccidia. Panacur kills worms, and flagyl kills protoza. So, that's 4 different types of meds (at least). It would be best to use only what's needed.

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Big Gunns needs to comment on this further.

A few people including WWP have given BG some grief about telling people to use a certain med without a fecal. Big Gunns has this to say about that. Every time you go to the doctor, does the doc take blood or check your urine. We know the answer to that don't we. If you go to the doc and tell him you have a stomach ache, he is gonna ask you a bunch of questions and maybe prescribe you something.

On the other hand. If you go to the doctor and tell him you have a stomach ache....along with the fact that you just got back from Africa studying the mating habits of the African Dung beetle. He will probably do more tests on you.:D

Big Gunns point is this. Although doing a fecal and other tests is not a bad thing, it's not always needed if you're experienced....key word is "experienced". BG may turn out to be wrong in this case, but if the OP does everything BG says, BG thinks it will eat if it's not too far gone. We may need to do a leeetle more tricks to get it to eat though. If they don't work then BG thinks more tests will be needed.

Yup! I hope this works, this snake drives me crazy!

I've been kind of following this thread and I wish you luck on getting him to eat again. I just think it's incredible that an animal can go that long without eating and only loose a little more than 100g of weight...


Rob

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

I've been kind of following this thread and I wish you luck on getting him to eat again. I just think it's incredible that an animal can go that long without eating and only loose a little more than 100g of weight...


Rob

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It almost seems to me that snakes like these mostly use food only to grow and reproduce, so crazy...

----> Insert "Are we over feeding our snakes" thread bellow <---- :snake:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

I've been kind of following this thread and I wish you luck on getting him to eat again. I just think it's incredible that an animal can go that long without eating and only loose a little more than 100g of weight...


Rob

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Thanks Rob!

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Originally Posted by Danounet

It almost seems to me that snakes like these mostly use food only to grow and reproduce, so crazy...

----> Insert "Are we over feeding our snakes" thread bellow <---- :snake:

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Could very well be! I wish I had a female to breed him to, maybe that would stimulate him to eat! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

A few people including WWP have given BG some grief about telling people to use a certain med without a fecal. Big Gunns has this to say about that. Every time you go to the doctor, does the doc take blood or check your urine. We know the answer to that don't we. If you go to the doc and tell him you have a stomach ache, he is gonna ask you a bunch of questions and maybe prescribe you something.

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Actually, YES. Every time I have gone to a doctor, they do in fact want a blood or urine sample, often both. If I go to a doctor and tell him I have a stomach ache, he checks my white cell count, he doesn't just prescribe me something without looking for evidence of what's causing the problem. I do not think I would go to a doctor who treated an internal problem in that fashion!

"Anorexia" in snakes, 99% of the time, has a concrete cause. The first thing that should be done is to look for the cause. Once environment and prey preferences are addressed, it's time to look for signs of an illness. Parasitization and infection are two common causes. It's important to determine what's wrong so you can treat it properly and completely. I stand by that opinion.

These drugs are not harmless. They are toxic chemicals. Some individual animals have adverse reactions to them. It's rare, but it happens. In an animal already weakened by some underlying issue that has caused it to stop feeding for a year, it could do more harm than good if it is not the proper treatment.

I second the flagyl suggestion!

I also suggest you try cramming your snake into a 6qt tub for a week or 2 and then see if he eats... it's weird but has worked for me with snakes far larger than 500 grams!

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Originally Posted by Mike@OutbackReptiles

I second the flagyl suggestion!

I also suggest you try cramming your snake into a 6qt tub for a week or 2 and then see if he eats... it's weird but has worked for me with snakes far larger than 500 grams!

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I do have some small tubs that I can try this with if needed... who knows?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Actually, YES. Every time I have gone to a doctor, they do in fact want a blood or urine sample, often both. If I go to a doctor and tell him I have a stomach ache, he checks my white cell count, he doesn't just prescribe me something without looking for evidence of what's causing the problem. I do not think I would go to a doctor who treated an internal problem in that fashion!

"Anorexia" in snakes, 99% of the time, has a concrete cause. The first thing that should be done is to look for the cause. Once environment and prey preferences are addressed, it's time to look for signs of an illness. Parasitization and infection are two common causes. It's important to determine what's wrong so you can treat it properly and completely. I stand by that opinion.

These drugs are not harmless. They are toxic chemicals. Some individual animals have adverse reactions to them. It's rare, but it happens. In an animal already weakened by some underlying issue that has caused it to stop feeding for a year, it could do more harm than good if it is not the proper treatment.

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Not BG's Doctor...BG better fire his behind.:D:D Then again..BG doesn't know your lifestyle...maybe your doctor knows something about you we don't and thinks you need the tests.:rofl::rofl::rofl: That's a joke WWP...don't get offended.:P:D Doctors do not do every test they could when you see them...if yours does...he's robbing you or your insurance in BG's opinion.

BG does hear what you're saying, and he agrees to a point WWP, but an experienced Vet can usually prescribe meds without doing all the tests. If they don't work soon, then you can get more tests done without any harm to the snake.

Is it 100% best that you do tests....yes...BUT...it's better to give the snake meds while you're waiting for the tests if you're getting them done, then to wait for the tests and then medicate. This BG's opinion and BG "stands by it". In a perfect world is taking a bunch of tests the best thing to do....yes....but BG says that experience tells him it's not always needed.

Treating a Ball Python with Baytril and Fortaz is gonna knock out anything it has almost(BG knows "almost" is not always) all the time. Another drug that can be used it Amikacin. BG won't kill his Vet or Doc if they don't do a million tests. He'll trust their experience first to see if what they prescribe works. If it doesn't....then he'll kill them:D:D

"Anorexia" and a Ball Python not eating are not the same thing. Just because a Ball Python does not eat, doesn't mean it's "Anorexic". In this case the snake has not lost much weight, even though it's been a long time. BG does think it needs to be treated to be safe, even though it could just start eating tomorrow and be perfectly fine without treatment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

"Anorexia" and a Ball Python not eating are not the same thing. Just because a Ball Python does not eat, doesn't mean it's "Anorexic". In this case the snake has not lost much weight, even though it's been a long time. BG does think it needs to be treated to be safe, even though it could just start eating tomorrow and be perfectly fine without treatment.

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Yup, this guys hasn't really lost all that much weight. He isn't as fat as your average ball, but he sure doesn't look like he is "anorexic"!

Just want to make a few points here....

Metronidazole (Flagyl) is an antibiotic that also has anti-inflammatory effects in the GI tract. It also kills some flagellated parasites. It is not considered a GI irritant. Whether or not it actually stimulates appetite, I don't know, but it does get snakes eating again so who cares.

To the OP: offer your snake a small meal, as her body has adjusted to starvation mode and may not be able to handle a big meal.

Regarding what human docs do:
Comparing what human doctors do to what vets do is like apples and oranges. A huge difference in the fields being that MDs' patients can talk to them about what's going on -- MD's get a lot more information from that. Vets generally need to do a lot more tests to find out what is going on because patients can't tell us things like "it hurts when you poke there," "I have a headache," etc. Some animals, especially exotic animals, are very stoic and it's really hard to figure out how they are feeling.

Secondly, a hell of a lot more is known about human medicine than veterinary medicine. Even in well studied species, like horses, cows, and dogs, what we actually know is tiny compared to what we know about human medicine. What we know about reptiles is depressingly small.

Thirdly, human docs often do a poor-ass job working up their patients. A thorough physical exam is rarely done, and the database collected on patients is pathetic. And guess what, lots of stuff gets missed because of it.

Fourth, vet medicine is paid for out of pocket, and a lot of vets' hands are tied by what the client is willing to pay for. Standard of care often can't be afforded (or the client just isn't willing to cough up the dough for the health of his pet), and so the vet does the best they can with the situation they are given.

My point is, the way MDs and the way DVMs practice medicine is totally different for many reasons. And the way dogs & cats are treated is totally different than how reptiles are treated. Ideally, we'd do aerobic, anaerobic, fungal, and viral testing for all RI's presented, but rarely do clients want to pay for that. So we put the snake on antibiotics and hope the client follows our instructions to prevent resistant bugs, and hope that the critter gets better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wax32

:rolleye2: I looked at the vet list: not a single one in Louisiana, let alone New Orleans.

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If "I" were in New Orleans, I'd be contacting both Sean at Exotics By Nature and Tim Bailey and ask them what veterinarian THEY use! ;)

Good post!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Just want to make a few points here....

Metronidazole (Flagyl) is an antibiotic that also has anti-inflammatory effects in the GI tract. It also kills some flagellated parasites. It is not considered a GI irritant. Whether or not it actually stimulates appetite, I don't know, but it does get snakes eating again so who cares.

To the OP: offer your snake a small meal, as her body has adjusted to starvation mode and may not be able to handle a big meal.

Regarding what human docs do:
Comparing what human doctors do to what vets do is like apples and oranges. A huge difference in the fields being that MDs' patients can talk to them about what's going on -- MD's get a lot more information from that. Vets generally need to do a lot more tests to find out what is going on because patients can't tell us things like "it hurts when you poke there," "I have a headache," etc. Some animals, especially exotic animals, are very stoic and it's really hard to figure out how they are feeling.

Secondly, a hell of a lot more is known about human medicine than veterinary medicine. Even in well studied species, like horses, cows, and dogs, what we actually know is tiny compared to what we know about human medicine. What we know about reptiles is depressingly small.

Thirdly, human docs often do a poor-ass job working up their patients. A thorough physical exam is rarely done, and the database collected on patients is pathetic. And guess what, lots of stuff gets missed because of it.

Fourth, vet medicine is paid for out of pocket, and a lot of vets' hands are tied by what the client is willing to pay for. Standard of care often can't be afforded (or the client just isn't willing to cough up the dough for the health of his pet), and so the vet does the best they can with the situation they are given.

My point is, the way MDs and the way DVMs practice medicine is totally different for many reasons. And the way dogs & cats are treated is totally different than how reptiles are treated. Ideally, we'd do aerobic, anaerobic, fungal, and viral testing for all RI's presented, but rarely do clients want to pay for that. So we put the snake on antibiotics and hope the client follows our instructions to prevent resistant bugs, and hope that the critter gets better.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If "I" were in New Orleans, I'd be contacting both Sean at Exotics By Nature and Tim Bailey and ask them what veterinarian THEY use! ;)

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I don't know Sean, but I do plan to get in touch with Tim next week and ask him if he doesn't eat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wax32

:rolleye2: I looked at the vet list: not a single one in Louisiana

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Call LSU vet school if you need a good exotics vet in southeast LA.

I take my animals to noone else. They are the best around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wax32

I don't know Sean, but I do plan to get in touch with Tim next week and ask him if he doesn't eat.

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You don't really have to "know" Sean to inquire what vet he uses. When I was looking for an exotics vet around me, I contacted my local herp society and the Atlanta Zoo Reptile department for their recommendations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Call LSU vet school if you need a good exotics vet in southeast LA.

I take my animals to noone else. They are the best around.

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Daniel is in LA, sounds like good advice!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Just want to make a few points here....

Metronidazole (Flagyl) is an antibiotic that also has anti-inflammatory effects in the GI tract. It also kills some flagellated parasites. It is not considered a GI irritant. Whether or not it actually stimulates appetite, I don't know, but it does get snakes eating again so who cares.

To the OP: offer your snake a small meal, as her body has adjusted to starvation mode and may not be able to handle a big meal.

Regarding what human docs do:
Comparing what human doctors do to what vets do is like apples and oranges. A huge difference in the fields being that MDs' patients can talk to them about what's going on -- MD's get a lot more information from that. Vets generally need to do a lot more tests to find out what is going on because patients can't tell us things like "it hurts when you poke there," "I have a headache," etc. Some animals, especially exotic animals, are very stoic and it's really hard to figure out how they are feeling.

Secondly, a hell of a lot more is known about human medicine than veterinary medicine. Even in well studied species, like horses, cows, and dogs, what we actually know is tiny compared to what we know about human medicine. What we know about reptiles is depressingly small.

Thirdly, human docs often do a poor-ass job working up their patients. A thorough physical exam is rarely done, and the database collected on patients is pathetic. And guess what, lots of stuff gets missed because of it.

Fourth, vet medicine is paid for out of pocket, and a lot of vets' hands are tied by what the client is willing to pay for. Standard of care often can't be afforded (or the client just isn't willing to cough up the dough for the health of his pet), and so the vet does the best they can with the situation they are given.

My point is, the way MDs and the way DVMs practice medicine is totally different for many reasons. And the way dogs & cats are treated is totally different than how reptiles are treated. Ideally, we'd do aerobic, anaerobic, fungal, and viral testing for all RI's presented, but rarely do clients want to pay for that. So we put the snake on antibiotics and hope the client follows our instructions to prevent resistant bugs, and hope that the critter gets better.

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Big Gunns has been waiting for you on this thread CV...what took you so long?:D

BG did mean to point out the fact that a animal can't tell the Vet what's bothering it, but the Vet can talk to the owner and get a lot of helpful info that can help with a diagnosis.

Big Gunns isn't disagreeing with CV and WWP completely. In a perfect world all the tests would be done to be 100% sure you give the right meds. We don't live in a perfect world though. Like CV said....money is always an issue with reptiles. People are reluctant to spend a lot of money on a $40 snake that could care less who feeds it.

It would be very easy to say on all threads like this what the politically correct answer is. Take your snake to the Vet and get expensive tests to determine what's wrong with it. Better advice in BG's opinion is to take it to a qualified and experienced Vet. This Vet is gonna be able to help you without "taking you to the cleaners". The experienced Vet is gonna be able to tell if all the tests are needed. They may be needed soon, but not now, since it appears healthy and has not lost much weight.

BG does understand that he is not the normal reptile keeper also. Big Gunns is gonna be a lot more helpful in diagnosing what's wrong with the snake. In this particular case, with this snake, BG thinks that Flagyl and few feeding tricks should work. Unfortunately it is the worst time of the year to get a snake to eat. It may need to be assist fed a small meal. The Flagyl is not gonna hurt anything though.

Let BG point something out also. The Vet that the OP took this snake to doesn't seem to know much of anything. The OP told the Vet about Flagyl. If we(the posters on this thread) said nothing about Flagyl, this snake may have got some cough medicine and a vaporizer.:taz:

To wrap this all up. WWP and CV are right....technically....but BG is right also....and BG is more important.:P:D If someone takes their 40 dollar snake to the Vet and gets a $400 bill, BG can guarantee that the next time they have a problem, that snake isn't going to the Vet. It's unfortunate, but true. CV seems to know this all too well. If you take your snake to an experienced Vet, this Vet should be able to tell if you need a bunch of expensive tests on the first visit. BG doesn't think the Vet is "shotgunning" meds either. It's just experience. Doing expensive tests with every snake that has an issue is not practical, although BG does agree with CV and WWP. In a perfect world...it is the best thing to do.

In other words. Take the snake to an experienced Vet and you don't need advice from us or anyone. Just trust them to take care of your animal. If they say you need tests, get them. If they don't, trust them that they know what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If "I" were in New Orleans, I'd be contacting both Sean at Exotics By Nature and Tim Bailey and ask them what veterinarian THEY use! ;)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by wax32

I don't know Sean, but I do plan to get in touch with Tim next week and ask him if he doesn't eat.

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Call leeetle Sean and tell him Big Gunns said he better tell you what Vet to go to and pay for it also.:D:D

ps. It's not that easy to talk in the third person and give advice that people will listen to.

Well I hope everything works out for the snake, and I was thinking the same thing BG mentioned, Is the worse time of the year to get the snake to eat. Why didnt you worry more 3 months ago. :P

Out of all this, I think is a good Idea to make a sticky under this section of the forum (BP Husbandry) with a list of good Snake/Critter Vets that people have already use them under each major city in each county.

Example:
Broward - Fort Lauderdale, FL. (Or something like this... Is late and I cant sleep dont make me think to much :taz:)


EDIT: BLEH I meant to post this under the other thread "be loyal to your snake..." but I guess it works out in here too... =)

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Originally Posted by Big Gunns

Big Gunns has been waiting for you on this thread CV...what took you so long?:D

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Oh, just busy saving lives and taking people to the cleaners. :P

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Originally Posted by CritterVet

Oh, just busy saving lives and taking people to the cleaners. :P

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It's the horror stories Big Gunns has heard that made him make that comment. The expensive bill for a scale outta place and a spider web in the cage.:D