Culling Healthy Animals

My 2 cents, as I just spotted this thread:

Normal ball pythons are in high demand in the pet trade. Morphs are in virtually 0 demand in the pet trade. By providing quality (by which I mean healthy) normal ball pythons to the pet trade, we may potentially be reducing the demand for CH or wild caught ball pythons, which is desirable.

I have no sympathy for the notion that ugly snakes should be culled...in part because I think they are NOT ugly. Normal ball pythons, for example, are beautiful animals. I sell my normal males to a local pet store for a fair price--it's above wholesale. The rest I sell to individuals locally as pets. I have no problem selling my normal ball pythons. Once I am producing very large numbers of them, of course I will have to sell them wholesale, instead, but they'll wind up in the hands of individuals who want them for pets.

Ball pythons don't breed like rats. There is no good purpose served in culling them, it's just a waste of life.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Every single normal male I have produced, I have placed in free pet homes, and I screened each home as best that I could. I asked very pointed questions about housing, experience, and if they had no experience, pointed them to sites and caresheets to help them get started BEFORE they took their new pets home.

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I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true. Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

Seperately, I wanted to reiterate again, that I am not saying noone should ever produce normals and or other than top notch animals. All I am saying is that it's ethically OK to use them, when you have too many, as a food animal for other species. I think this is also good for the hobby as a whole, as it keeps there from being so many of these animals out there that noone really wanted, or intended, to make. Most of the normal balls and Mutts carpets produced are the results of Morph crossings. When there are too many, you are not obligated to sell them off. It's better for the hobby if you don't IMHO. There are already tons of them out there.

There is a demand for any animal at the right price, but the lower the price gets, the more disposable the animal becomes. This is a fact...again...there are no absolutes.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I should point out to those who are not familiar with carpets that it's a difficult species to work with because many of the morphs are in different subspieces, so in order to cross them, you make hybrid "normal" offspring. In essence...Mutts. Rather than just send them into the world, muddying up the gene pool further and creating animals that are nothing other than pet quality snakes...I tend to take the ones I don't think will be very nice looking, and I feed them to a Lizard so they don't go out and become giant ugly brown snakes that noone wants, which is where this discussion comes from. I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks. Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.

S~

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This is entirely different than culling because you have too many.

If you're working towards a goal and producing animals that do not contribute to that goal AND, here's the key, you don't want anyone else working with them muddying up what you're doing, then culling is the way to deal with your babies that don't fit the criteria you use for future breeders.

I personally don't have a problem with you feeding snakes to whatever will eat them, but I do think you're either confused yourself or just don't want to be totally totally honest.

You're culling to make what you want. That's cool. But why are you making what you want? Is it for the sheer joy of putting two snakes together to see what you get or is there a profit motive?

I can't see any way to validate your assumption that your ugly babies would suffer and die. They might. They might not. No one knows but you have decided they will be better off dead, without either total clarity or honesty, and feed them off.

Freeze em, feed em, give them away but be honest about why you're doing it. It really seems like you're trying to justify your "honesty" but not being honest with yourself, and thereby us, about why.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

There is a demand for any animal at the right price, but the lower the price gets, the more disposable the animal becomes. This is a fact...again...there are no absolutes.

S~

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This statement is invalid.

If there are no absolutes, then any facts are suspect.

You can't have it both ways in this situation.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

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If Robin said she did, she does. Count on it.

You make MANY assumptions. A theory based on an unproven assumption, which you are in no way trying to prove or disprove, is worthless.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true. Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

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I on the other hand, I don't doubt it for a second. You are right.....you don't know her.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true. Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

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Stating that you seriously doubt it to be true IS calling me a liar.

I'd bet within two years all of them will be continuing to thrive in the homes of the people I placed them with. Why? Because they all contact me from time to time to give me updates on their animals. They are beloved pets for them. AND, they know that I'll take them back if they ever find they can't or no longer wish to care for them.

That's how I choose to run my small hobby business, and I won't produce a huge number of animals just because I can. I also happen to believe selective breeding is the future of ball pythons. Therefore, I may have some females ready to go, but they don't fit into that year's plans, because I don't think they compliment what I'm striving towards. Good for me, they get another year of maturity and growth until I'm ready to use them in a different project.

Some of the animals that I produce may not have monetary value, but their lives hold GREAT value to me. I have turned down more homes than I've accepted for my normal males. I keep most of my normal females, and those I let go, so far have gone to other breeders that I know personally.

Some of us really DO do this for the love of the animals and not the love of the dollar.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

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I'm glad to see that you have so much faith in customers (and potential customers) to think that they can't keep an animal alive for 2 yrs. I'm assuming you don't sell any animals that you "like the looks of" as they only stand a 50% chance of making it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is entirely different than culling because you have too many.

If you're working towards a goal and producing animals that do not contribute to that goal AND, here's the key, you don't want anyone else working with them muddying up what you're doing, then culling is the way to deal with your babies that don't fit the criteria you use for future breeders.

I personally don't have a problem with you feeding snakes to whatever will eat them, but I do think you're either confused yourself or just don't want to be totally totally honest.

You're culling to make what you want. That's cool. But why are you making what you want? Is it for the sheer joy of putting two snakes together to see what you get or is there a profit motive?

I can't see any way to validate your assumption that your ugly babies would suffer and die. They might. They might not. No one knows but you have decided they will be better off dead, without either total clarity or honesty, and feed them off.

Freeze em, feed em, give them away but be honest about why you're doing it. It really seems like you're trying to justify your "honesty" but not being honest with yourself, and thereby us, about why.

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I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. How am I being dishonest exactly? I am not being a smartass...I really don't get what you are saying.

How about you just selectively breed the best quality animals and do not expect to produce "ugly" animals? If your truly that worried about not being able to sell normals, breed everything with recessives or supers.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This statement is invalid.

If there are no absolutes, then any facts are suspect.

You can't have it both ways in this situation.

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Of course you can. It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care. There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.

S~

I also want to add, I have a local pet store practically begging me for my "throw-away" normals. Because he has referred to them as "throw-aways", none of my animals will ever be offered in his store. I just simply tell him that I don't have any throw-away animals.

Besides which, I DO enjoy taking the time to put that first ball python into the home of a new keeper and paying it forward to them with a nice, healthy, feeding animal vs. a Petco or Petsmart animal for $80, that may or may not feed for them, that may or may not have internal parasites, because they are farmed animals.

I get great joy in sharing my love for these magnificent creatures with someone just starting out. My hobby started with one "ugly" normal male ball python who will always have a home in my collection until the day he dies (of a natural long life, I might add).

I'd say that more than half of those homes where my normals have gone, are currently on my waiting list for their first morph.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Of course you can. It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care. There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.

S~

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Do you have ANY data that backs up your claims? So, because someone paid nothing for one of my normal males, (but spent well over $100 in purchases to set up their animal), it's less likely to be properly cared for? I would almost be willing to take an infraction to call cow manure!

It seems, from what you have written, which is somewhat confusing, that you have two trains of thought.

On the one hand, you say feeding your babies for food is ethical. No problem, I can see that.

To the left however, you say it is good for the breed, ie you the breeder who makes money off the morphs he sells, and is better for the snakes which is a baseless assumption.

If you're not confused, and I don't mean to insult you, you're either a good liar or you don't know yourself as well as you think.

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And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

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And what make you so sure that higher end animals those that you deem deserving of a second chance :rolleyes: (I mean those worth your time because they make money) won’t be dead in 2 years also?

If you were truly so concern about the future of your animals, don't you thinl you should worry about the other too? Do you seriously thing that because they are pretty or more expensive they cannot be abused, abandonned or die?

You can try to justify it all you want, whether it's the breeding for food, or you saving them from an atrocious future :rolleyes:, you are simply killing those animals because they are "ugly" not worthy or your time and might take longer to sell...................... it's that simple.

And don't get me wrong you can do what you want with your animals but at least be honest with yourself and the reason why you are really doing what you are doing.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If Robin said she did, she does. Count on it.

You make MANY assumptions. A theory based on an unproven assumption, which you are in no way trying to prove or disprove, is worthless.

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And you speak in vagueries to sound intellegent. Start naming the assumptions, and I'll explain why I think this way, and why I think it's good or bad for the hobby.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

...there are no absolutes.

S~

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Absolutely.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

And you speak in vagueries to sound intellegent. Start naming the assumptions, and I'll explain why I think this way, and why I think it's good or bad for the hobby.

S~

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Sorry dude, that wouldn't further my need to "sound intelligent" nor would it enable you to be honest with yourself, be that by admitting you are solely motivated by profit or that you are not entirely sure that what you are doing IS alright and so seek justification from fellow keepers.

You know the assumptions, you're not stupid. I'm just not going down that road with you.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Then you would be a minority. Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims. I have been around a very long time. There are no absolutes of course.

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Two points about the quote above ...

#1 ... "more than 100 animals per year" is not a "large scale breeder" by any stretch of the imagination. You should know better if you've been around for a "very long time"

#2 ... Ingrid is not in the minority. I produce over 100 animals a year by an order of magnitude and I make sure that EVERY animal I sell either goes to a good home or goes to a trusted friend that I know will find it a good home. I have dozens of friends in this business that produce as much and even more than I do that do the same. I don't know where you've been for this long time, but it's not in the same reptile hobby that I know.

It can be done. Just because you choose not to put forth the effort and choose to KILL healthy animals doesn't mean that the rest of the industry follows suit. I'm embarrassed for you that your mental picture of this business is a bunch of emotionless breeders that would rather kill healthy offspring than find them proper homes. I've been around a long time too, going on 30 years of keeping ball pythons, I've had the privilege of meeting thousands of reptile breeders, hobbyists, and enthusiasts, and while there is certainly a small fraction that does have the same flagrant disregard for how precious a life is that you seem to have the VAST MAJORITY care about their animals as much as most people care about a dog, or a cat, or a even a family member.

Shame on you for lumping all of the good people in this hobby into a pile with the careless scum that are 100% to blame for the problems we are having with state, local, and the federal governments ... Shame on you for not taking the time to get to know the side of the hobby that treasures every life no matter what it's financial value, as precious ... Shame on you for discounting the compassion, respect, and love for these animals that I see every day on these forums and in the phone calls and emails that I receive as something done for show or in order to make sales.

If you want to kill healthy animals, that's your choice. But don't try to sell it to people that actually care about life. No one is buying.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Do you have ANY data that backs up your claims? So, because someone paid nothing for one of my normal males, (but spent well over $100 in purchases to set up their animal), it's less likely to be properly cared for? I would almost be willing to take an infraction to call cow manure!

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Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go". Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do. Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well. Most people dont' take that time.

And do you have any data to back your claims? I am not here to garner your approval. I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates. I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts? Can you show me something that proves me wrong? Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more. Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad? You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset? How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go". Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do. Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well. Most people dont' take that time.

And do you have any data to back your claims? I am not here to garner your approval. I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates. I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts? Can you show me something that proves me wrong? Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more. Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad? You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset? How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?

S~

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If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...

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Originally Posted by wilomn

It seems, from what you have written, which is somewhat confusing, that you have two trains of thought.

On the one hand, you say feeding your babies for food is ethical. No problem, I can see that.

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Yes this is my position exactly.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

To the left however, you say it is good for the breed, ie you the breeder who makes money off the morphs he sells, and is better for the snakes which is a baseless assumption.

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I never said this. I said it's good for the hobby to not mass produce low value snakes that end up in the everglades or dead because they are considered by many to be disposable. I did say I think it's better for the snakes, not the breed, that they be used as a feeder animals early, than sent out into the world where they are more likely than not, to have a poor qualoity of life. I am not a proponent of culling to better the breed. I never have been.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If you're not confused, and I don't mean to insult you, you're either a good liar or you don't know yourself as well as you think.

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No, your reading INTO what I am writing, not reading WHAT I am writing. There is a difference. You are making assumptions based on what you think I am saying, not stating what I actually said, and mean. I am using very specific language for a reason.

S~

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Originally Posted by waltah!

If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...

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OK thats just funny. 8-)

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

OK thats just funny. 8-)

S~

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Not funny, but true. You make lots of assumptions regarding the members here. Pets are pets. They're not electronics that are easily replaced so I don't think it's a good comparison.
Luckily for you Mom and Dad didn't subscribe to these same ideals since there are plenty of babies in the world.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

If you were truly so concern about the future of your animals, don't you thinl you should worry about the other too?

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I am, but they are far less likely to get poor care, because they are more expensive.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Do you seriously thing that because they are pretty or more expensive they cannot be abused, abandonned or die?

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No, I think it's much less likely. Thats the best you can hope for really.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

You can try to justify it all you want, whether it's the breeding for food, or you saving them from an atrocious future :rolleyes:, you are simply killing those animals because they are "ugly" not worthy or your time and might take longer to sell...................... it's that simple.

And don't get me wrong you can do what you want with your animals but at least be honest with yourself and the reason why you are really doing what you are doing.

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This is a very common thought because it's the easiest to believe. I can't change that excpet by beating the same drum over and over. Ten years ago when I lived in Florida I was preaching that Burms and Retics would be a problem in South Florida, and it would slap the entire hobby. Look where we are today? I am saying now that, we have reduced some species of snakes, pythons in particular, to such cheap animals because they are mass produced, that they will in the long run do more harm that good for the hobby. How many times do you think a politician will need to hear a shelter say they cant' take anymore ball pythons...and that it's a real, costly problem, before we can't keep them anymore? is that really worth selling a baby snake for $10?

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I am, but they are far less likely to get poor care, because they are more expensive.



No, I think it's much less likely. Thats the best you can hope for really.




This is a very common thought because it's the easiest to believe. I can't change that excpet by beating the same drum over and over. Ten years ago when I lived in Florida I was preaching that Burms and Retics would be a problem in South Florida, and it would slap the entire hobby. Look where we are today? I am saying now that, we have reduced some species of snakes, pythons in particular, to such cheap animals because they are mass produced, that they will in the long run do more harm that good for the hobby. How many times do you think a politician will need to hear a shelter say they cant' take anymore ball pythons...and that it's a real, costly problem, before we can't keep them anymore? is that really worth selling a baby snake for $10?

S~

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Ohhhhhh, now I get it.

YOU get to choose for all of us what we do.

You have one point of view and do not see any other.

I say yours is flawed and therefore invalid.

You have every right no only to have it, but to proclaim it from every forum that will let you.

That does NOT make it valid though. Nothing will.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

Not funny, but true. You make lots of assumptions regarding the members here. Pets are pets. They're not electronics that are easily replaced so I don't think it's a good comparison.
Luckily for you Mom and Dad didn't subscribe to these same ideals since there are plenty of babies in the world.

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I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here. Most of the folks here are like me, and care alot for their animals, and what happens to them when they leave our care. The problem is that when we tire of an animal, or can't use it anymore we sell it or give it away for the most part. This happens again, then again, especially with inexpensive animals. At some point in that chain, less valuable animals ussually met an untimely end for one reason or another. Reducing the number of them at hatching is good from every angle. The smaller footprint we have in the eyes of the folks who want to takeour snakes away, the better. The footprint I speak of is stories of released animals, and abused animals.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go". Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do. Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well. Most people dont' take that time.

And do you have any data to back your claims? I am not here to garner your approval. I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates. I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts? Can you show me something that proves me wrong? Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more. Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad? You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset? How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?

S~

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Yes, I do have the data to make the claims about MY animals that have placed, and your assumptions hold no water in my personal experiences. I keep in touch with all the homes they've been placed in, and all of them still love them as much as the day that they got them. No one has yet taken me up on my offer to take their animals back if they grow tired or bored of them.

As to my local shelters here in metro Atlanta, they don't get many. How do I know? Because they have my number to call me as soon as any are surrendered there. I've had less than 5 calls in the past year. And when I call them to check from time to time, they don't have any.

I have no problem with feeder snakes. I do have a problem with devaluing the life of an animal and feeding it off for no other reason than it doesn't fit your definition of beauty, when there are many, many homes who would love the chance to own it as a pet.

I just don't believe that you've looked that hard, or you are just choosing not to see that there are many good people out there, who do take the responsibility of pet ownership very seriously and not as casually as you claim
that they do.

If you breed for the reason of creating feeder snakes, fine. I have no problem with that. But if you feed off animals for some higher "moral ground" that you've deigned needs to be there, I don't support that.

I do take offense that you believe that my animals, who I've carefully chosen homes for, are somehow worse off than yours who you choose to feed off.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Most of the folks here are like me

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I've been a member of this site for 5 years and I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know one thing with absolutely certainty ... this is the most untrue statement ever posted on this forum.

Even though we may not always see eye to eye about things like animal prices, husbandry methods, politics, or religion, most of the folks here are people that I consider friends and fellow enthusiasts and I can assure you ... you are the odd man out.

-adam

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here. Most of the folks here are like me, and care alot for their animals, and what happens to them when they leave our care. The problem is that when we tire of an animal, or can't use it anymore we sell it or give it away for the most part. This happens again, then again, especially with inexpensive animals. At some point in that chain, less valuable animals ussually met an untimely end for one reason or another. Reducing the number of them at hatching is good from every angle. The smaller footprint we have in the eyes of the folks who want to takeour snakes away, the better. The footprint I speak of is stories of released animals, and abused animals.

S~

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You certainly have made assumptions about members here. Apparently we are liars who would not put our own pets ahead of a piece of electronics made in China.
You can of course do anything you like with your own animals, but you are truly inflexible when it comes to anyone else's ideals or opinions.
I can just see all of those little pythons in the eggs thinking to themselves "Man, I hope I make the cut!"

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Ohhhhhh, now I get it.

YOU get to choose for all of us what we do.

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I didn't say this. You are letting emotions get to you and you are loosing credibility with each post like this. I am telling you what I do to try and stem what I see as a problem, and would like to debate oposing opinions.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You have one point of view and do not see any other.

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No, I see your point, and I want to debate with you about why I think mine approach is better for the hobby. Thats what debating is...putting forward opposite views, and backing them up with your thoughts and if you have them, facts. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But if you postone, I get to rebute it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I say yours is flawed and therefore invalid.

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You love to say things like this. Your are not debating. You are saying things that make you sound profound, but they mean and prove nothing. The problem is your not saying anything to support your side of the arguement. Your letting your emotions rule your thoughts and you are posting things that show it. Just because you say my logic is flawed (and don't explain how or why mind you) does not make it so...LOL. Disagree with my posts, post your thoughts, but don't try to invalidate mine with a God Statement.

S~

The point about high-value items getting better care has some weight in my experience, at least with material things. For example, how many pairs of crappy $10 sunglasses have you broken and not cared about? OTOH, I've got a pair of Oakleys that I've had for coming up on 13 years now. If they were crappy $10 sunglasses, I most likely would have lost or accidentally broken them by now, but because they cost me $145, I've taken good care of them and still have the original lens. Admittedly, it has a few scratches now, but all in all, it's in very good shape for a lens that's seen near-daily use for 13 years.

I think this behavior pattern breaks down somewhat with regard to animals, at least for those of us who feel an attachment to them, but I also know that there are many people out there who severely mistreat every type of animal, regardless of how "disposable" it may be. It's nigh-impossible for us to determine which of these two behavior patterns is prevalent in more people, especially given that most people would claim that they take good care of their animals, regardless of whether it's true.

With regard to the argument that reptiles are more "disposable" than "cute," furry animals, I wonder if I'm odd in thinking that reptiles are actually *less* disposable because they live longer and will therefore be in your life longer. Example: my leopard gecko may live to be > 20 years old (is the record still 28?), but most dogs and cats have a maximum lifespan of 10-15 years. BPs can live even longer (IIRC the record is 40+ years).

Especially because this discussion began with carpet pythons, I have to wonder what criteria the OP uses to determine which animals will be "ugly" in the first place. Carpets are variable and unpredictable in appearance; an ugly hatchling may be a beautiful adult and vice versa.

A further question for the OP: what percentage of your fish's meals are baby carpets? Your monitor's meals? (I assume that as a "large-scale" breeder, you keep feeding records for all of your animals.) If it's a high percentage, you might as well admit to yourself that part of your purpose in breeding carpets is to feed your other animals. I'm not necessarily condemning you for that if it's true, but it seems like it could be seen as a relevant point in the discussion by some.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

You certainly have made assumptions about members here. Apparently we are liars who would not put our own pets ahead of a piece of electronics made in China.
You can of course do anything you like with your own animals, but you are truly inflexible when it comes to anyone else's ideals or opinions.
I can just see all of those little pythons in the eggs thinking to themselves "Man, I hope I make the cut!"

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I never said you were liars. Not once. I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position. Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing. You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement. If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.

I'll say it again. This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds. I said this in my first post. If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people. We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I didn't say this. You are letting emotions get to you and you are loosing credibility with each post like this. I am telling you what I do to try and stem what I see as a problem, and would like to debate oposing opinions.



No, I see your point, and I want to debate with you about why I think mine approach is better for the hobby. Thats what debating is...putting forward opposite views, and backing them up with your thoughts and if you have them, facts. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion. But if you postone, I get to rebute it.



You love to say things like this. Your are not debating. You are saying things that make you sound profound, but they mean and prove nothing. The problem is your not saying anything to support your side of the arguement. Your letting your emotions rule your thoughts and you are posting things that show it. Just because you say my logic is flawed (and don't explain how or why mind you) does not make it so...LOL. Disagree with my posts, post your thoughts, but don't try to invalidate mine with a God Statement.

S~

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You have based everything you have said on assumptions.

I have no need to prove anything. I'm not the one trying to prove a point of view.

I can and do say that you are postulating as true what is not. That invalidates what you say.

The proof is in this thread. You have been disagreed with on almost every assumption you have put forth. You refuse to see any point of view other than your own, which is not debate but defense.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, don't care enough to put that much effort into it. Without putting effort into it though, I can see that your logic is flawed.

The proof of that is in this thread. Whether or not you acknowledge it is not my call to make.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I never said you were liars. Not once. I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position. Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing. You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement. If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.

I'll say it again. This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds. I said this in my first post. If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people. We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.

S~

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The original comparison was an Iphone to a calculator. YOU replaced the "disposable" calculator with a ball python. You called Robin a liar and mockingly called me one with the "that's just funny" reply regarding the above comparison.
Nobody has to put any words in your mouth to make you look bad. You are doing a mighty fine job of that all on your own. You keep saying to "take the emotion out of it". It's tough to do that when the subject matter is pets (bp's to be precise) on a site called ballpythons.net. Being unemotional about it is really not an option unless your main goal is just to have the biggest collection which any idiot with a credit card could accomplish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I never said you were liars. Not once. I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position. Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing. You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement. If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.

I'll say it again. This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds. I said this in my first post. If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people. We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.

S~

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Let me just say this about this emotion thing you keep blaming those who rightfully disagree with you for using to much. First, that is yet ANOTHER assumption on your part.

You don't know me so I can't really blame you and in fact with most people it would be true, but with me, and I say this only because it is true, emotion has NOTHING to do with my posts or point of view.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by olstyn

Especially because this discussion began with carpet pythons, I have to wonder what criteria the OP uses to determine which animals will be "ugly" in the first place. Carpets are variable and unpredictable in appearance; an ugly hatchling may be a beautiful adult and vice versa.

A further question for the OP: what percentage of your fish's meals are baby carpets? Your monitor's meals? (I assume that as a "large-scale" breeder, you keep feeding records for all of your animals.) If it's a high percentage, you might as well admit to yourself that part of your purpose in breeding carpets is to feed your other animals. I'm not necessarily condemning you for that if it's true, but it seems like it could be seen as a relevant point in the discussion by some.

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Excellent Post. Carpets are not that hard. You can get a good idea when they are little what they have the potential to be once you work with them a bit. Still, I don't just cull stuff right out of the egg. Sometimes it's six months down the road before i can tell it's not a great example of the type.

I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.

I maybe cull 15 or 20 animals per year. I am not feeding babies by the plateful. I am just making educated guesses as to what the likelyhood is of how this animal will look as an adult, and how likely it will be to find a true, long term home. If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

S~

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And you know this how?

Quote:

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If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

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Says YOU?

And if so it's because you do not want to put in the work!

Then if so just quit breeding mutts............... problem solved!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You have based everything you have said on assumptions.

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Name a few please, or stop talking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I have no need to prove anything. I'm not the one trying to prove a point of view.

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Yes you are. You are trying to tell me I am wrong. Gop back a few posts and read where you are tell me so. Then please tell me why I am, or just go away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I can and do say that you are postulating as true what is not. That invalidates what you say.

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Like what, and why is it untrue, because you say so? Thats called using a GodStatement, and that has no merit. You have to have a reason why it's not true, or you have no point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

The proof is in this thread. You have been disagreed with on almost every assumption you have put forth. You refuse to see any point of view other than your own, which is not debate but defense.

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Go back and reread it. There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it. The vocal ones are the folks who disagree. Thats not uncommon, and what I was hoping for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, don't care enough to put that much effort into it. Without putting effort into it though, I can see that your logic is flawed.

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Again...God Statement. Why did you come here, disagree with me, not post anything with any merit, and then bow out because you "don't care"? That means I won our debate. Thank you.

S~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Name a few please, or stop talking.



Yes you are. You are trying to tell me I am wrong. Gop back a few posts and read where you are tell me so. Then please tell me why I am, or just go away.



Like what, and why is it untrue, because you say so? Thats called using a GodStatement, and that has no merit. You have to have a reason why it's not true, or you have no point.



Go back and reread it. There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it. The vocal ones are the folks who disagree. Thats not uncommon, and what I was hoping for.



Again...God Statement. Why did you come here, disagree with me, not post anything with any merit, and then bow out because you "don't care"? That means I won our debate. Thank you.

S~

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LOL

As you will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

This topic is emotionally driven... If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it

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Of course it's emotionally driven, we're talking about killing living creatures here ... these aren't widgets, iphones, ipods, or sunglasses ... there is a name for people that speak about killing without emotion ... they're called sociopaths.

I mean really, did you seriously just suggest that we need to kill "low value" animals in order to reduce our "footprint" in the eyes of the government? Do you seriously believe that the only way to protect our rights as pet owners and breeders is to accept the notion that it's ok to take a life in the name of a hobby?

Well, I'm ready for my first infraction in 5 years ... cause that's about the biggest load of horse doo doo I've ever heard. (sorry for the potty mouth mods)

Blessings,

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

The original comparison was an Iphone to a calculator. YOU replaced the "disposable" calculator with a ball python.

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No, that comparison was made by a member here other than me, but in this same thread. It was a good analogy, so I reused it to explain my point, again, because it takes emotion out of the equation. Didn't I just go over this with you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

You called Robin a liar.

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No, I said I didn't know her well enough to call her a liar, and said if she were being truthful with me, that she's the first ball breeder I ever met who cares that much to do what she does for her animals. Others backed her up, and respect her for it, so now I do too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

and mockingly called me one with the "that's just funny" reply regarding the above comparison.

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Actually. You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator. That made me laugh, and I thought you were trying to be funny, and break the ice a little. My bad I guess....sheesh. Next time I won't politely laugh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waltah!

Nobody has to put any words in your mouth to make you look bad. You are doing a mighty fine job of that all on your own. You keep saying to "take the emotion out of it". It's tough to do that when the subject matter is pets (bp's to be precise) on a site called ballpythons.net. Being unemotional about it is really not an option unless your main goal is just to have the biggest collection which any idiot with a credit card could accomplish.

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Sir, you keep misqouting me. Please read above in the last few exchanges I have had with you. Thats not fair, and called putting words in my mouth. I m not here to make friends, andif being truthful is making me look bad, then that OK with me.

Yet again, I am not here to garner approval, and I am just saying what tons of people already think, but never talk about on a forum. The really great thing is that you guys are helping me make my point. Your not attacking my logic, your attacking me personally by misqouting me, and negating my thoughts with GodStatements. Thats your emotions talking, which I totally get, and just keep trying to remind you that it's not about emotions, it's about whats best for the hobby. And whats best is not always what is the easiest, or most fun.

S~

Well, Don't kill baby snakes because it's MEAN!!! alright no, but seriously...


sorry but I'll just be very blunt here. I do not agree with culling healthy animals, even accidental hybrids, for any reason. If people have trouble homing snakes that they produce, they should not be producing them in the first place. I believe that once they are born their life is to be respected such as any other's would be. It is not their fault that they were produced and made they way they are, and they should not have to pay the ultimate price for it. This goes across the board, not just for snake keepers. People who cull healthy animals should maybe take a step back and look into a different hobby, one that does not involve choosing who is worthy of living, and who isn't. Breeding specifically for feeders is different and there's nothing wrong with it, but I am not aware of anyone personally that puts all the work into breeding snakes to use as feeders, because let's all be realistic here it IS a lot of work, and a heck of a LOT more to produce than any rodent or bird feeder, there are just so many other options that make SO much more sense. But still, I am not talking about breeding and using snakes as feeders, I am talking about the people who just opt for the easiest and cheapest way out of a situation that involves too many baby snakes. There is something wrong with people who will simply think nothing of killing off animals that are either not up to their personal standards, or that they are having too much trouble finding homes for. Most of the time, they are simply not trying hard enough or are trying to get something out of them in an effort not to lose money. Many dog and cat breeders think nothing of doing it. I have witnessed this personally and one of my customers owns a pefectly healthy beagle that was brought to her office to be put to sleep as a puppy because she was not "up to par", whatever that means. I am not angry because it's a cute little puppy, I am angry because some people have a serious god complex. Who is that person to decide that a healthy, thriving animal is sub-par? Who wrote that handbook? I would like to meet this person. And then hit them.
If you have quadruplets and you were only aiming to have a single baby, and the strain is really too much and one of those children has a very slight handicap, surely, you wouldn't cull that child. What I am trying to say is, respect life in all of it's forms. One life form should never be considered less valuable than another.

This also continues to be a problem in cornsnakes, and probably BP's too, everyone is producing far too many and the animals are the only ones that suffer from it. If you truly love your animals, and you respect them and love them as you would your own family, then it should be the same for their offspring. I know and have met many, many, many people at expo's who I can clearly say, should be in a different hobby. Those would be the ones that treat animal keeping and collecting much the same they would stamp, trading card, and rock collecting. I simply can't stand it. They should not be treated as merchandise or product, it strips much of the true value of this hobby away, as does the short and to the point, recycled, synthetic-feeling responses you get from breeders and sellers who treat them as such. If you have to treat them like they are merchandise/products, you have too many. Where is the quality of life there?

I keep snakes because I love them to pieces, every single one and I will do anything, even if I lose money, or even turn down a sale (I have, actually), to ensure that any snake I produce will have a bright future ahead. If I ever get to the point where I cannot handle everything on a personal level with time to dedicate to my snakes and customers on an individual, personalized basis I will know it's time to downsize. I wish more people would take that extra step and even maybe try to get a feel for each of their hatchlings on a one on one basis. To many people, that is absurd and completely unrealistic. But I know for a fact it is not. Give me a clutch of baby snakes that all look the same and in a few weeks I will know them as individuals... their sex, what they prefer to eat, how they'd like to eat it and what kind of temper they have. Try it, it gives you a distinct advantage: potential buyers love the fact that you actually care past having a successful transaction!

If it's simply not for the money and you do care about the animal enough to worry what might happen to it in the future (because there are too many "normal" "ugly" snakes).
Then you would either not breed at all or breed very limited amounts so that you could be very careful with who gets those "normal" "ugly" snakes you produced while trying to get that "high end" "pretty" snake.

Without having to cull any of them!

Just my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Of course it's emotionally driven, we're talking about killing living creatures here ... these aren't widgets, iphones, ipods, or sunglasses ... there is a name for people that speak about killing without emotion ... they're called sociopaths.

I mean really, did you seriously just suggest that we need to kill "low value" animals in order to reduce our "footprint" in the eyes of the government? Do you seriously believe that the only way to protect our rights as pet owners and breeders is to accept the notion that it's ok to take a life in the name of a hobby?

Well, I'm ready for my first infraction in 5 years ... cause that's about the biggest load of horse doo doo I've ever heard. (sorry for the potty mouth mods)

Blessings,

-adam

---

Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders. I also think that in doing so, it helps our hobby. I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat. There are way more out there already than need be. So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes and ask if it's doing us any good as a hobby? We are already under pressure. Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks. it's not worht it IMHO.

If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life? Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you. What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it? This question comes up hundreds of times everyday already in the hobby. Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests. It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think. Don't you?

S~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SilverWolf

If it's simply not for the money and you do care about the animal enough to worry what might happen to it in the future (because there are too many "normal" "ugly" snakes).
Then you would either not breed at all or breed very limited amounts so that you could be very careful with who gets those "normal" "ugly" snakes you produced while trying to get that "high end" "pretty" snake.

Without having to cull any of them!

Just my opinion.

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I completly agree with you. The problem is, if I have to give up my hobby, it's not choice at all. I'll cull snakes all day long rather than give it up. I love working with my animals, and if that means I think a few should be used as feeders to make me feel better about what I am doing as a hobbiest, so be it. Thats selfish I know. But no more selfish in my view than someone who sells hundred lots of ball pythons for nothing so they can make a quick buck. I think thats far worse than what I do.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Most large scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims. I have been around a very long time.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I produce upwards of 300 carpet pythons babies per year, and have this year, expanded into ball pythons.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.

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So you are by your own definition a large scale breeder because you produce more then 100 animals per year.... And you have been around a long time.

But you also are NOT a big breeder because you only breed 300 babies per year, and that's not many.

You just started working with ball pythons this year, but somehow we as a ball python forum should consider that you have been around for a long time.

LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.

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This is an idiotic statement at best. You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about. This could not be further from the truth. I am not even going to begin to try to argue my point on this because you have already made it clear that it would be a waste of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator?

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So now you are comparing an animal that YOU produced to an electronic product? Or you are using this point that someone else made to back up your argument? I wish there was a way to immediately ban you from being able to even keep reptiles... let alone breed them. Luckily though sooner or later we will find out who you really are and your business will be in ruins without any outside help.

Welcome to the world of Ball Pythons. I hope you enjoy your SHORT stay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests.

S~

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Really? That's the only source of wild pythons in Fla?

You pick and choose, ignore and imply, yet you say the same thing over and over.

You don't want a conversation, you don't want a debate. You want us to tell you it's ok.

Good luck with that.