Price drops

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Originally Posted by joepythons

So if someone is not a bigtime breeder his/her animals are worth less? Wow :rolleyes:

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No, they just tend to undercut since big breeders names are well known while theirs are relatively unknown, meaning they are less likely to be considered if their prices are the same as the well known big breeders. That's just how the market seems to work, by all means sell them for more, but you probably won't have many people buying from you.

They just shouldn't offer them for much lower than show costs as that puts them into a realm of seeming untrustworthy.

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So if someone is not a bigtime breeder his/her animals are worth less? Wow

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Actually, they said their prices should not be lower then show prices because show prices are already lower then market price.

I personally don't plan to produce more animals than I can hold onto. I'm no big name breeder, and I have no heartache pricing my animals what I think they are worth. I already have a waiting list of people who want Winston babies (my lemon pastel) who are willing to pay a little more than market for your average pastel.

I know what my space limitations are, and I plan to work within them, fwiw.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

No, they just tend to undercut since big breeders names are well known while theirs are relatively unknown, meaning they are less likely to be considered if their prices are the same as the well known big breeders. That's just how the market seems to work, by all means sell them for more, but you probably won't have many people buying from you.

They just shouldn't offer them for much lower than show costs as that puts them into a realm of seeming untrustworthy.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

Actually, they said their prices should not be lower then show prices because show prices are already lower then market price.

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Why should they be lower then the bigtime breeders though? If they are well known or not the animals are still the same(or should be) of the same quality.

If Joe Shmoe has his animals priced the same as Ralph Davis, BHB... who's animals are going to sell?

Yeah I'm gunna have to agree with rabernet, you should preplan things before breeding so you know what you will have space for ((average clutch size + standard deviation) x number of clutches = how much room you should have availible before breeding) I mean if you already have people waiting on the snakes then that could remove an amount of space needed, but you should still have room for some of them as people may back out.

As for the Lemon Pastel: They always go more than a pastel, it's the whole line thing.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

If Joe Shmoe has his animals priced the same as Ralph Davis, BHB... who's animals are going to sell?

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Depends on the look of the reptile :gj:.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Why should they be lower then the bigtime breeders though? If they are well known or not the animals are still the same(or should be) of the same quality.

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Bigtime breeders have better quality, i mean if you buy two lemon pastels from BHB and breed them out, thats a BHB super lemon quality, and can go for more. But its also the trust of the breeder in question. If i buy a pastel hatchling whom was from bhb lines but in the first week was not properly attended to, one of the most delicate times of their lives then it could be quite gimped.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

If Joe Shmoe has his animals priced the same as Ralph Davis, BHB... who's animals are going to sell?

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That's my point from before.

They don't HAVE to sell it for less, in fact they can sell it for more, however people are going to want to know why they consider their snakes better or the same as the big name breeders, whose facilities can be easily seen, all the snakes are taken care of at the same quality, which is a standard that is praised by hobbiests (hence them selling so many)

As far as working within space limitations goes:

How about certain breeders with breeding facilities the size of Wal-Mart putting 30,000 eggs on the ground in a single season.
How many seasons that takes to affect the market?

Do you think they are holding back their male Spiders and Pastels?

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Depends on the look of the reptile :gj:.

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which in case would also lead back to the grading system. which was went through pretty well in this thread http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...d.php?t=100608

also joe has a point if this guy is a crasher. than to bhb wouldnt most small time breeders in the same aspect be market crashers?

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Originally Posted by Thebeastwithinyou

Bigtime breeders have better quality, i mean if you buy two lemon pastels from BHB and breed them out, thats a BHB super lemon quality, and can go for more. But its also the trust of the breeder in question. If i buy a pastel hatchling whom was from bhb lines but in the first week was not properly attended to, one of the most delicate times of their lives then it could be quite gimped.

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So once a reptile leaves said big breeder its offspring are worth less when they reproduce because they were produced by a lower level breeder :rolleyes:? WRONG!!! :colbert:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Depends on the look of the reptile :gj:.

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Thats a point that would warrant them selling the animal for more, just like how it warrants NERD selling animals for more based on their looks. It's about what the consumer will actually buy, a consumer is drawn to the big breeders, and rightly so since big breeders aren't the walmart of ball pythons but the quality controlled factories of ball pythons.

What it comes down to is trust, the big breeders already have trust from the consumers, making new and old consumers alike more likely to purchase from them, while the independent breeders need to either prove that they are somehow as good or better than the big name breeders, or they can undercut them and move animals. Which is what a lot of these people do.

However it's potentially cruel to the animal to sell them for less than the already highly discounted show prices, those animals may end up in the hands of less respectable individuals who will, in the future, sell low quality animals to people after they have bred them. Or worse yet the animal gets force fed, or ends up with a respiratory problem.

I'm just saying that just bellow show costs is as low as you should go if you really care about your animals. Although personal deals with people you already know may see even lower costs.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

So once a reptile leaves said big breeder its offspring are worth less when they reproduce because they were produced by a lower level breeder :rolleyes:? WRONG!!! :colbert:

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i wouldnt say lower level, but i would rather see them as small breeder

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Originally Posted by Thebeastwithinyou

Bigtime breeders have better quality, i mean if you buy two lemon pastels from BHB and breed them out, thats a BHB super lemon quality, and can go for more. But its also the trust of the breeder in question. If i buy a pastel hatchling whom was from bhb lines but in the first week was not properly attended to, one of the most delicate times of their lives then it could be quite gimped.

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No they don't! Lemon pastels are NERD line, btw. On what basis do you say that the big breeders have better quality? Even the big breeders will tell you that there are many smaller scaled breeders with superior quality.

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Originally Posted by nixer

also joe has a point if this guy is a crasher. Than to bhb wouldnt most small time breeders in the same aspect be market crashers?

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thank you :d

Which is a good reason to know who you are buying from.

As I said Big Breeders are quality controlled, while a small breeder has the burden of proof laid upon them. If they can prove they are better, then that's great.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

As far as working within space limitations goes:

How about certain breeders with breeding facilities the size of Wal-Mart putting 30,000 eggs on the ground in a single season.
How many seasons that takes to affect the market?

Do you think they are holding back their male Spiders and Pastels?

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Who is putting 30,000 ball python eggs on the ground each year? Let's be generous and say an average clutch is 8 eggs, that's 3750 females laying eggs in one season.

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Originally Posted by nixer

i wouldnt say lower level, but i would rather see them as small breeder

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Ooops i was refering on the tier level lol

I give this thread till the end of today and it will be moved to the QT room :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

lol Your fighting a losing battle get over it ! The prices are falling and they will keep falling ! Why do you even care what we are selling are animals for as long as my hobby can pay for itself im good with that !

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This is the type of ignorant post that makes the business side of reptiles so awful. Bascially saying as long as he's good, forget anyone else....

The "instant gratification" aspect is what is killing this market. Did anyone ever hear of saving your money and getting what you want instead of buying any example of the morph because it is the cheapest you can find?...it makes it that much sweeter. The fact that anyone can afford the basic morphs now and mass produce them in their bedroom is another reason that this market is going to be the corn snake market in the near future.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

If Joe Shmoe has his animals priced the same as Ralph Davis, BHB... who's animals are going to sell?

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The animal that looks the best and appeals to the particular customer. I am NOT buying any animal based on who produced it. I am buying an animal that I think is the best example of the morph.

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However it's potentially cruel to the animal to sell them for less than the already highly discounted show prices, those animals may end up in the hands of less respectable individuals who will, in the future, sell low quality animals to people after they have bred them. Or worse yet the animal gets force fed, or ends up with a respiratory problem.

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Then is it cruel to sell normals for $20. or $30. or is it only cruel if it is a Morph?
How does the price that you sell the animal for affect the quality of the offspring that animal will produce?

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Originally Posted by rjk890

How does the price that you sell the animal for affect the quality of the offspring that animal will produce?

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I'm just getting at if they are purchased by people who aren't going to take care of them.

I knew a guy who insisted that his ball pythons would be fine with 4 in a 20 gallon tall. He found a caramel for cheap and had that in there too, the snakes all died of respiratory problems and he never bothered taking them to the vet. Why did he do this? He got them for cheap.

As far as the normals go, people seem to consider them as undesired results of breeding and many could care less who they sell them to. It's wrong, but it's what happens.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

thank you :d

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yw joe

the point here is it doesnt matter everyone on this site will have a different opinion on this either way, but the point here is this.. our country is a free trade enterprise, which means that its up to you to set your own prices.
unless every breeder starts making ppl sign a contract stating that the buyer cannot sell for less than market price and what market price is deemed on it will continue be a free trade enterprise.

at the same time i would sure like to know how alot of ppl seem to say that daytona sets the price, yet last time i checked a gallon of gas was not the same price in every area nor are any other goods or services

also if daytona sets the price then might i ask who was the first person at daytona to lower their prices then you will have the market crasher

In my opinion i would rather buy from small breeders then some of the bigtime breeders.Why you ask? Its simple SOME of the big breeders do it for the money mostly.They do not have the time to give every reptile the extra care or attention small breeders do.When i bred my snakes i could tell you everything about a snakes background.Its not always about the name of the breeder but the quality of the animals either will produce ;).People instead of bickering back and forth all night over something that is not going to change go enjoy your labor day weekend :gj:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I'm just getting at if they are purchased by people who aren't going to take care of them.

I knew a guy who insisted that his ball pythons would be fine with 4 in a 20 gallon tall. He found a caramel for cheap and had that in there too, the snakes all died of respiratory problems and he never bothered taking them to the vet. Why did he do this? He got them for cheap.

As far as the normals go, people seem to consider them as undesired results of breeding and many could care less who they sell them to. It's wrong, but it's what happens.

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Nope prices had nothing to do with it HE WAS AN IDIOT!!!

He got more snakes because of the low cost. He killed more snakes because of the low cost. He was about to buy a low costing fire (at the time) from a breeder before all his snakes died.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

This is the type of ignorant post that makes the business side of reptiles so awful. Bascially saying as long as he's good, forget anyone else....

The "instant gratification" aspect is what is killing this market. Did anyone ever hear of saving your money and getting what you want instead of buying any example of the morph because it is the cheapest you can find?...it makes it that much sweeter. The fact that anyone can afford the basic morphs now and mass produce them in their bedroom is another reason that this market is going to be the corn snake market in the near future.



The animal that looks the best and appeals to the particular customer. I am NOT buying any animal based on who produced it. I am buying an animal that I think is the best example of the morph.

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ignorant ?? How i get the morph i want and i sell the rest for cheaper how is that wrong ? As for pastels there all the same for the most part you could have a lemon brown out ! It's all on the animal i have seen a lot of pastels from diff lines and it's not always the line !

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Originally Posted by rjk890

Then is it cruel to sell normals for $20. or $30. or is it only cruel if it is a Morph?
How does the price that you sell the animal for affect the quality of the offspring that animal will produce?

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And I would argue, what's the point of buying quality if they're going to be selling for rock bottom prices regardless?

Folks need to have a little pride in the quality of the animals that they are producing and selling (and I'm talking the look of the animal, all else being equal).

If it's truly a quality, Grade A animal, why WOULD you drop the prices to the same price as a dirty pastel (with pastels as the example).

There ARE buyers out there for quality animals. I'm one of them. I don't buy a morph just because I want that morph. I decide what morph that I want and I wait until I get to find the very best example that I can of that animal. Do you know why? Because with all these people producing pastels and spiders, etc just for the sake of producing them, finding FINE examples is rare. And to me, worth that extra money.

Shouldn't we all be working to IMPROVE the morphs we're working with?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

The difference is, pretty much everyone else is selling them between 200 and 300. Maybe I'm just of the opinion that the price doesn't need to be that low. It goes right along with using the word cheap in ads. The economy and supply and demand does enough to devalue these animals. The breeders don't need to help.

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Well, finally i get to agree with Jglass on something... People are too desperate right now. Losing their homes, getting second mortgages, losing jobs etc... Also too many people are breeding and have huge set-ups in rented homes or apartments.. Thats just a disaster waiting to happen..

These prices dont NEED to fall this bad. In a year or 2 when things start to pick up again, these people will regret selling their prize snakes for so low. The smart breeders will choose the most valuble hold-backs. Why do you think we are not seeing very many snakes for sale from the "top" breeders? And what IS for sale by them is not nearly as cheap as the same snake being sold by other people.. But they are still selling for the most part.

Reputation is a big part of it. The people dropping their prices just to get things sold are actually helping other breeders in the future... Those of us just starting out. The only reason id buy a spider for $150.00 is if i personally knew the seller and knew for sure he/she was going thru some serious financial issues. Otherwise i wouldnt trust that breeder.

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Originally Posted by Draigess

Reputation is a big part of it. The people dropping their prices just to get things sold are actually helping other breeders in the future... Those of us just starting out. The only reason id buy a spider for $150.00 is if i personally knew the seller and knew for sure he/she was going thru some serious financial issues. Otherwise i wouldnt trust that breeder.

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And you'd want to see the snake, as well as it's parents, right?

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Originally Posted by Thebeastwithinyou

I paid 150 for my male spider. at a show. but still. I plan to sell my spiders for 150-200 each, 225 for females. Its mainly due to the amount of them being produced now. just like why pastels used to be 2500 dollars, and are now found for 200 or lower. same with pinstripes. they used to fetch a large lil penny.

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Please dont sell them that low... You will only make the value of that morph as a whole drop substantially.. Damaging the business of other breeders. Keep to the prices that the GOOD, WELL KNOWN, REPUTABLE breeders sell for.. If your animals are healthy, well started. There is no reason to sell so low..

Unfortunately price does have something to do with it. It's a big problem in the iguana market, people pick them up from the pet store for 14.99 and then don't bother to take proper care of it because hey, it was cheap, who cares if it dies?

With normals going for 20 bucks, we're going to see a lot more people buying snakes who are unprepared for the care they require. It's already happening because as someone said earlier, normals are seen as somehow 'lesser' than more exotic morphs, and people don't care who they sell them to. This breaks my heart, because my normal may not have COST me very much, but his WORTH is more than any other snake in the world, to me.

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Originally Posted by Draigess

Please dont sell them that low... You will only make the value of that morph as a whole drop substantially.. Damaging the business of other breeders. Keep to the prices that the GOOD, WELL KNOWN, REPUTABLE breeders sell for.. If your animals are healthy, well started. There is no reason to sell so low..

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This depends when he sells them, if it's next year the prices are probably going to be that low anyway :/

Big time breeders do not, as a rule, have better quality. They have more animals, but more animals does not equate to "higher quality".

Next time you are at a big show (Daytona, NARBC), keep a tally on those few 'big time' breeders, and the mid level to smaller breeders. Hands down, I have always seen the best from the midlevels to small. Maybe it's because they are more hands on and keep only the finest select animals.

Regardless of the numbers someone keeps, their quality speaks in the animals they produce and sell. Not the quantity that they sell. ;)

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Originally Posted by BabysMomma

With normals going for 20 bucks, we're going to see a lot more people buying snakes who are unprepared for the care they require. It's already happening because as someone said earlier, normals are seen as somehow 'lesser' than more exotic morphs, and people don't care who they sell them to. This breaks my heart, because my normal may not have COST me very much, but his WORTH is more than any other snake in the world, to me.

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My normal was my favorite, then my fire became my favorite since she cost so much, then she turned out to be a finicky eater (only if the rodent happens to be moving really fast or is alive, and in either case only if she's in the mood) then my normal became my favorite again, but he's been pretty bite-y lately so it's all about my pastel.

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Originally Posted by BabysMomma

This breaks my heart, because my normal may not have COST me very much, but his WORTH is more than any other snake in the world, to me.

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Completely agree with you. My normal males that I produce may not have much monetary value, if any - but I'm going to find them the very best homes that I can. I love to help out a new keeper by putting a nice, well started male in their home, but I also work with them for weeks before they get them to ensure that they are prepared with a proper set-up. Being a smaller breeder, I have the luxury of holding onto them until I can find the right homes for them.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Completely agree with you. My normal males that I produce may not have much monetary value, if any - but I'm going to find them the very best homes that I can. I love to help out a new keeper by putting a nice, well started male in their home, but I also work with them for weeks before they get them to ensure that they are prepared with a proper set-up. Being a smaller breeder, I have the luxury of holding onto them until I can find the right homes for them.

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I'd rather give normals away to people I know than sell them to people I don't. But I know a lot of people.

I will keep babies as an alternative to selling them off for nothing. I sold a normal male hatchling yesterday for $40. I know they are like $15 at shows, but they are worth more than that to me. Rather than sell my female Pastel hatchlings for $99 like I've seen I will raise them up and make combos later or sell them for a higher price as adults.
I would rather see more breeders show pride in their animals and their worth. High quality has a higher value and I would hate to see them all lumped together with the not so great examples. A few lowball ads on KS or Fauna is all it takes for people to start dropping prices a little at a time.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

And you'd want to see the snake, as well as it's parents, right?

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Exactly. And the housing conditions in which its being kept... I have alot of new snakes coming very soon and even tho im sure they are all healthy and well cared for, they will all be fecal tested and blood tested as well as being kept seperate from my others. Ive heard horror stories from my exotics vet about small time breeders and snake sickness...

People have no idea how easy it is to lose your entire collection due to one simple sickness that can go un noticed until its been passed to every single snake. There are multiple bacteria, parasites, and viruses that can be in these snakes and easily passed to another one..

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Originally Posted by waltah!

. A few lowball ads on KS or Fauna is all it takes for people to start dropping prices a little at a time.

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Maybe if the person who posted that lowball spider add on fauna explained his situation and why he was selling so cheap in the text of the add it would have been better....rather than looking like a low ball price dump?

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I think the middle ages would beg to differ. About 60% of daily calorie intake was from alcohol.

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but those people only lived to like 30......

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Big time breeders do not, as a rule, have better quality. They have more animals, but more animals does not equate to "higher quality".

Next time you are at a big show (Daytona, NARBC), keep a tally on those few 'big time' breeders, and the mid level to smaller breeders. Hands down, I have always seen the best from the midlevels to small. Maybe it's because they are more hands on and keep only the finest select animals.

Regardless of the numbers someone keeps, their quality speaks in the animals they produce and sell. Not the quantity that they sell. ;)

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I agree... When i say big time breeders i mean the ones that specialize in quality, health, etc.. Not the biggest numbers of snakes being bred persay.. But the biggest names with the best reps in the business..

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Originally Posted by Draigess

I agree... When i say big time breeders i mean the ones that specialize in quality, health, etc.. Not the biggest numbers of snakes being bred persay.. But the biggest names with the best reps in the business..

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Ooooo yeah this is a good point, when I was saying the big breeders I mean the big name, well known, satisfied customer base breeders.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Guys, bringing up show prices isn't really an apples to apples comparison. Show prices are always lower. Look at any thread about any show and you'll see the remarks about how cheap this and that was selling for.

I guess I should have put the disclaimer in my post that these are MY opinions. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. But this is an open forum and everyone is free to express their own thoughts on the subject.

If you figure around $50 for packaging and shipping, then $180 shipped is actually $130 for the animal. That is quite a bit lower than I have seen.

Dylan: I get what you are saying. Economy is bad, not enough space for babies, gotta feed the family. Everyone has these problems. I value the animal more and would rather hold on to them than sell them at less than what I believe they are worth. I am sorry, but I just don't believe Spiders are $130 animals yet.

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I think im actually beginning to like this guy LOL!

Hi,

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Maybe if the person who posted that lowball spider add on fauna explained his situation and why he was selling so cheap in the text of the add it would have been better....rather than looking like a low ball price dump?

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It's a possibility - but, and let's be honest here, it is far more likely people would use the info to try and lowball him no matter how low the prices already seemed. :(


dr del

Prices will always fall. Some will go back up and some wont. Its all supply and demand and theres not a whole lot of people investing alot of money into reptiles right now like there was. I bought my male spider from a small time breeder in columbia for 180.00 but I thought It was the best looking spider at the show. New morphs are always coming around so the older more basic morphs are always going to drop. Im sure the pastels and spiders will level out soon and stop droping but now you have bumblebees and lessers droping in price. There will always be people trying to undercut and outsell people and so prices will always go down but its the quality of the animal that matters the most not the price of it. If I see a 100 dollar spider beside a 250 dollar spider but the 250 spider looks better im going to throw in the extra cash and get the higher quality animal.

The moment you get to caught up in the money issue in this hobby is the moment the hobby starts to lose its fun!

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Originally Posted by Denial

The moment you get to caught up in the money issue in this hobby is the moment the hobby starts to lose its fun!

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And also the moment you stop taking notes on your biology text book and start hitting F5 constantly. Ungh.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



It's a possibility - but, and let's be honest here, it is far more likely people would use the info to try and lowball him no matter how low the prices already seemed. :(


dr del

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True. People are always looking for cheaper prices. I can't tell you how many people respond to my adds with "I love that snake but could you do it for xxx"...

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Originally Posted by monk90222

True. People are always looking for cheaper prices. I can't tell you how many people respond to my adds with "I love that snake but could you do it for xxx"...

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yes it does happen alot, but also ive went over and just asked about a price and right away its dropped without even a haggle or anything.
and big breeder or small they both do it just as much

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Originally Posted by monk90222

True. People are always looking for cheaper prices. I can't tell you how many people respond to my adds with "I love that snake but could you do it for xxx"...

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I know. The guy who I bought my fire from was surprised when I just handed him the money (asking price) for her. I thought she was gorgeous and was more than willing to take her for 700.