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Are we feeding too much?

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  • 08-21-2009, 05:41 PM
    greghall
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    feed them if they eat ! Thats what I do because they go off feed sometimes in their life,females get fed more to get ready for breeding.Ive been keeping for 3 years now & hate it when they are picky,babies I feed every 3 to 4 days/yearlings every 5/adults every 5 to 7 days if they want it.Like my girls nice & fat LOL!
  • 08-21-2009, 06:35 PM
    NorthernRegius
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    Over the years I've read and participated in some very interesting discussions about prey size, including many on this wonderful forum. From those discussions, about 2 years ago we decided to stop offering our BPs large feeders. We now offer 1 small or small medium once/week while they are eating.

    I doubt we'll know if this helps in their long term health for many years (most of our BPs are <10 years old) but I do think they tend to stay on feed and eat more consistently with the small feeders.

    BPs in the wild have feast days & fast days. We are able to offer them food at regular intervals & IMHO this is a better thing than not. However, I don't stuff my snakes like sausages just because they can "handle it".

    I see that more with Retics than BPs but still- offer a "nice" sized item around equal to the girth of the snake. I document feeding of each animal & work with what they do well on. Some of mine are 5 day feeders, some 7 & some 10 day. Watch your snake & document... this area can vary so IMHO be flexible.
  • 08-21-2009, 07:39 PM
    Danounet
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bundu Boy View Post
    I hear what you are saying about the age of the balls/their owners. I've only been collecting balls for 18 months and from the get go I've been reading about feeding babies every 3 days, then every 5-7 days, then as adults every 10-14 days.

    Is this too much?....

    I believe that feeding babies/juveniles more regularly is important to give them their start in life, but at what point do we slow down and adopt a longer break between feeding?

    I've got a spider male that is 9 months old and weighs almost 800g, he will eat everytime I put food in front of him, now I cannot but think that he has been overfed. I don't believe that the view 'feed them if they will eat' is good for the animal and may result in causing more harm than good. A dog will eat at any opportunity it gets ( well mine will at least;) ) and end up obese.

    Perhaps when we encounter a ball's 'hunger strike' it is telling us that we have gone too far and we need to give it months (not weeks) before trying to feed again. Perhaps....

    Some people will feed their animals to get them up to breeding weight as quick as possible, but at what price? Sure you may get females to breed at their second winter but is it a good idea if you are halving the lifespan of the animal?

    I'm interested in hearing from owners that have had balls a long time as I believe their input would be of value. Balls can live to over 40 years and I want to know how these animals are cared for when it comes to feeding....

    Ball pythons are still relatively new in the grand scheme of things, especially when you consider the age they can go to. As depicted by that poll, the majority of owners may have had balls for about 5 years (or have ball that are 5 years old) ... most of those balls are still considered young....

    :gj:

    BTW - What is a LJ?

    In my family, we have a 8 year old black lab. Gorgeous and best dog ever. Anyways. We had her since she was very few months old. She ALWAYS had and has food in her bowl. She has always fed herself. She is not obese and never has been.

    But then again every dog breed is different. I Just wanted to let you know and about her self feeding and not being obese. ;)
  • 08-22-2009, 01:59 AM
    Bundu Boy
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Danounet View Post
    In my family, we have a 8 year old black lab. Gorgeous and best dog ever. Anyways. We had her since she was very few months old. She ALWAYS had and has food in her bowl. She has always fed herself. She is not obese and never has been.

    But then again every dog breed is different. I Just wanted to let you know and about her self feeding and not being obese. ;)

    He he..... I've also got a black lab and if I left food in his bowl all the time he'd eat himself silly......

    Just goes to show how different the same/similar animals can be.....

    Thanks for the comments all....

    @NorthernRegius - You are right about BPs in the wild. These animals have lived hundreds of thousands of years on a very erratic (natural) feeding routine. They may eat 2 rats in one day then eat nothing for 6 months and they still grow and breed and live long. We must also not forget that balls in the wild may be more active than those in captivity, their need for food may cause them to move around more than a ball that has been conditioned to expect food to be brought to it.

    There are some schools of thought out there that perhaps an inconsistent feeding schedule is actually better for the animal. Inconsistent feeding mimics how it would be in the wild and helps provide the right level of food input in relation to the animal's energy consumption. We must not forget that in the wild a rat does not appear every friday at 6pm......

    This is one reason I feel that we may be making our little girls and guys overweight. This is an area I'm definitely more interested in investigating further...

    @Greghall. - I agree with feeding youngsters more as they are growing quicker and have need for more food imo.

    But I must ask the question, why must your girls be fat?

    Thanks again for the replies. I'm still keen to hear from the older school on this matter, if you have a ball python that is 10-15yrs+, what size are they and how much do you feed them?
  • 08-22-2009, 02:37 AM
    Kaorte
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    I don't think feeding an adult ball once a week is over feeding. They use a tremendous amount of energy just to kill their prey. They have to flex every muscle in their body for up to 15 minutes. That is a lot of work!

    Cobras need to be active in order to exercise since they kill their prey with venom, not by constriction. Its really comparing apples to oranges.
  • 08-22-2009, 02:49 AM
    Bundu Boy
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    Hey all

    I found this

    http://books.google.co.za/books?id=b...0study&f=false

    It is from a study book called 'Experimental Animal in Biomedical Research: Volume 2'

    If you click the link and go to the bottom of pg 58 it details 5 key factors in providing proper nutrition in snakes in captivity.

    It recommends that young snakes are fed every 7 days, with adults every 2 weeks to a month. (I am making the assumption that adult feeding is linked to the activity level of each snake species - more active = more frequent feeding & less active = less frequent feeding)

    It also indicates that longevity in snakes is linked to restricting their growth without under-nourishing them. To me this basically means that once adulthood is reached I should feed my balls enough so that weight gain still increases but at a much slower rate than expected of a juvenile ball python.

    Another factor which I am taking into consideration when looking at my feeding routine is female weight gain before breeding and winter fasting.
  • 08-22-2009, 03:08 AM
    Bundu Boy
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kaorte View Post
    I don't think feeding an adult ball once a week is over feeding. They use a tremendous amount of energy just to kill their prey. They have to flex every muscle in their body for up to 15 minutes. That is a lot of work!

    Cobras need to be active in order to exercise since they kill their prey with venom, not by constriction. Its really comparing apples to oranges.

    You may have a point there but I think that we should be wary of discounting the energy exerted in day to living of these animals. Elapids are much more active than boids on a daily basis so I find it difficult to accept that a ball python will use as much or more energy than a cobra over , let's say, a month.

    This is an educated guess on my part. I may be wrong, but I need facts on these matters.

    I've only had ball pythons less than two years so I cannot say that my current feeding regime is right. Ask me in 15 years time, then I'd be able to give a more factual answer.

    I'm afraid in this matter that I cannot agree with opinions made by owners that have had their ball for less than 5-10 years (myself included), overfeeding issues may only show themselves 10 years from when the animal is hatched. What we think is a healthy happy ball python may actually be an obese ball python that has been conditioned to accept food when offered (like my male spider!)...

    Again this stresses the importance of hearing from the age experienced ball python owners out there:please:
  • 08-22-2009, 04:06 AM
    blackcrystal22
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    I will say yes, I believe we are feeding a bit too much.
    I feed a bit less than the average forum goer here. But I'm also not in a huge hurry to breed. It really depends on your own experience and judgment. There's a point of unhealthy overfeeding and unhealthy underfeeding. As long as you fit some point in the middle of healthy, I think your doing fine.
  • 08-22-2009, 04:34 AM
    Bundu Boy
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by blackcrystal22 View Post
    I will say yes, I believe we are feeding a bit too much.
    I feed a bit less than the average forum goer here. But I'm also not in a huge hurry to breed. It really depends on your own experience and judgment. There's a point of unhealthy overfeeding and unhealthy underfeeding. As long as you fit some point in the middle of healthy, I think your doing fine.


    I think you touched on a major point there:gj:

    When I got my first few balls I thought that's I'd get as much food into them as quick as possible to get them up to breeding weight. But the more I research the matter the more I'm swinging towards the slow and steady approach as opposed to the quick and loads approach.

    I stopped months ago pushing to get my females to breeding weight by their second winter. :colbert: I will now take more time and get them up to weight by their third winter. My thinking is that they will be more mature, strong and physically ready for the breeding process.

    Secondly I want to enjoy my balls for as many years as possible, this is fairer on the animal and will help ensure I get longer living animals that will give me more healthy clutches.

    So what if I have only one female ready to breed next year, the following year I'll be much more comfortable in the knowledge that my other 3 females have had time to grow at a more natural pace to breeding age/size.

    What is the rush? These are living pieces of art that we have invested time and money in....:gj:
  • 08-22-2009, 06:38 AM
    NorthernRegius
    Re: Are we feeding too much?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bundu Boy View Post
    I think you touched on a major point there:gj:

    When I got my first few balls I thought that's I'd get as much food into them as quick as possible to get them up to breeding weight. But the more I research the matter the more I'm swinging towards the slow and steady approach as opposed to the quick and loads approach.

    I stopped months ago pushing to get my females to breeding weight by their second winter. :colbert: I will now take more time and get them up to weight by their third winter. My thinking is that they will be more mature, strong and physically ready for the breeding process.

    Secondly I want to enjoy my balls for as many years as possible, this is fairer on the animal and will help ensure I get longer living animals that will give me more healthy clutches.

    So what if I have only one female ready to breed next year, the following year I'll be much more comfortable in the knowledge that my other 3 females have had time to grow at a more natural pace to breeding age/size.

    What is the rush? These are living pieces of art that we have invested time and money in....:gj:

    Document whatever you do & track your results let THE RESULTS guide what you do- not what you expect beforehand. After a few years of adjusting, you will find what works for you.
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