Scaleless Rats and Corns?

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Tell that to Brian at BHB. :rolleyes:

And what do captive bred snakes need protection from in captivity?

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Exactly what I said.

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Originally Posted by Carpet_Boa

Just cause its cb doesnt make it right. Its WRONG, no other word for it. People who breed snakes in such a way are in it purely for the money and not for the love of keeping reptiles.
If you had a child, and it was born with no skin or its skin falling of? would you count that as ok or normal just cause the child wasnt born out in the woods????//// NO i dont think ya would.

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I'm honestly not even going to touch this....I'd be upset with myself.




:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Carpet_Boa

Just cause its cb doesnt make it right. Its WRONG, no other word for it. People who breed snakes in such a way are in it purely for the money and not for the love of keeping reptiles.
If you had a child, and it was born with no skin or its skin falling of? would you count that as ok or normal just cause the child wasnt born out in the woods????//// NO i dont think ya would.

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Dude we are talking about animals here. Animals are much hardier than humans, if we were put in the same conditions as say a cougar would go through, we wouldn't make it. Not a lot breeders are in JUST for the money. They are in it for the passion they have for snakes and if that is there only job, they will rely on them selling snakes in order to stay alive and pay bills. If a child was born with no skin or its skin falling off, they would be very vulnerable to diseases that they would probably die its first few months alive. Same thing with scaleless snakes, if there is signs that they won't make it, then let nature run its course, but if it still has a fighting chance, it should deserve to live, you are not God, you don't take away or give life.

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Originally Posted by Carpet_Boa

Just cause its cb doesnt make it right. Its WRONG, no other word for it. People who breed snakes in such a way are in it purely for the money and not for the love of keeping reptiles.
If you had a child, and it was born with no skin or its skin falling of? would you count that as ok or normal just cause the child wasnt born out in the woods????//// NO i dont think ya would.

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Wow....talk about an analogy gone awry. :rolleyes: The snakes have skin. But IF you insist on comparing the breeding of snakes to the birth of human children...are you saying that ALL humans born with a genetic difference from the norm should not, themselves, ever be allowed to have children? Albinos have no melanin...which protects us from the sun. Should they be forbidden to have kids? :no:

While I completely respect your opinion and choice to not like the idea of breeding scaleless snakes....I would suggest that such opinions be given a little more thought and be put in a more reasonable perspective. Not asking you to change your opinion...just put it in perspective.

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Originally Posted by Carpet_Boa

Just cause its cb doesnt make it right. Its WRONG, no other word for it. People who breed snakes in such a way are in it purely for the money and not for the love of keeping reptiles.
If you had a child, and it was born with no skin or its skin falling of? would you count that as ok or normal just cause the child wasnt born out in the woods????//// NO i dont think ya would.

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And how do you know that this isn't nature's next step in the evolutionary process with snakes? What's so "wrong" about it? They eat, they shed, they defecate, they breed, they occur in nature (there's a scaleless venomous in the venomous section, although I don't remember which species). All of these animals occurred in nature and were discovered. So nature's wrong too?

It might be better said that it's wrong in your OPINION.

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Originally Posted by Carpet_Boa

Just cause its cb doesnt make it right. Its WRONG, no other word for it. People who breed snakes in such a way are in it purely for the money and not for the love of keeping reptiles.
If you had a child, and it was born with no skin or its skin falling of? would you count that as ok or normal just cause the child wasnt born out in the woods????//// NO i dont think ya would.

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who are you to say what is wrong and what is right? and to say that someone who keeps scaleless snakes is in it for money??? are you crazy??? Ho can you POSSIBLY make that assumption? I plan on keeping one of these and let me tell you something, the last thing I care about regarding snakes, is money.

Scaleless is just another mutation. It affects them differently than most other mutations do, but it's still a mutation regardless. They DO have skin. They just don't have hard scales. It would be basically like having a child born with almost no body hair. (I know a girl like this, the only place she has any hair at all is her head!). There is in fact, a human syndrome that is absolutely dreadful called harlequin ichthyosis where the child is born with extremely abnormal skin, eyes, etc, and most die very shortly after birth. It is extremely painful and the suffering is immense. THAT is way different and if there were a snake equivalent I absolutely would not agree with breeding it. If the snakes are in captivity there is no need to be protected from predators and harsh sunlight, etc. Much in the same way that being albino does NOT hurt a snake in captivity, neither will being a scaleless individual. They live totally normal lives and have no idea they are even different! Just like albino's!

These scaleless reptiles are exactly like hairless dogs, cats, and rodents. (I think it is actually the same gene, in fact). They will NEVER be wild, and they will never have to survive in an environment where their thin skin would be a detriment. Our albinos and leucistics won't have to live where their light color makes them a target for predators. Our spiders won't have to find food in a situation where missing once or twice could mean the loss of a meal.

These are pets. If we breed them for unusual traits that do them no real harm, what's wrong with that? Lack of scales does the snakes no harm at all. They eat, defecate, drink, shed, and breed fine without scales.

These traits all cropped up as random mutations. In spite of how detrimental they seem, they've all been seen on occasion in adult animals in the wild--including the scaleless mutation. So obviously they are not immediately deadly, and animals can possess them and grow to breeding size. I think folks are overreacting to this because it seems like a deformity to them. The line between a desireable mutation or morph, and a deformity, is not clear cut. Cinnamons have oddly shaped snouts--is that a deformity? It all depends on your point of view.

Dachshund dogs have very short legs. Everyone is used to that. Munchkin cats also have very short legs, for much the same reason, but everyone lost their mind and freaked out over the deformed cats when they were first bred. They called it cruel. Why is it cruel in cats but not in dogs? People weren't used to it, that's all--that's the only difference.

People will get used to scaleless snakes, just as they did to hairless cats and dogs. I'm personally fascinated by them, and if I had funds and opportunity to pick some up as a breeding project, I would jump at the chance. Their colors are rich and defined, and they feel soft and velvety to the touch, from all reports. Very unusual animals.

Think carefully--do you think producing scaleless snakes is cruel because it does the snakes harm, or are you actually reacting to the perception that they have something wrong with them, and you have an instinctive aversion to things that are different?
Since it's been demonstrated that the snakes aren't harmed by their condition...what is it, really? Aversion to perceived deformity? That has nothing to do with how the snakes feel. They are perfectly happy to be alive. They are not suffering even one little bit. The suffering is in YOUR minds--because you think something so different should not exist. Yes, they would lack protection of their skin if they were wild...but they're not. They live on newspaper, paper towel, or soft aspen or coconut fiber, and they're fine.

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Originally Posted by Carpet_Boa

Just cause its cb doesnt make it right. Its WRONG, no other word for it. People who breed snakes in such a way are in it purely for the money and not for the love of keeping reptiles.
If you had a child, and it was born with no skin or its skin falling of? would you count that as ok or normal just cause the child wasnt born out in the woods????//// NO i dont think ya would.

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It isn't wrong. I don't see anything wrong with a snake without scales. And also, a scaleless snake is nothing compared to a baby born without skin or it's skin falling off. Do you see any skin falling off on a scaleless snake? These snakes are amazing and beautiful I think, and I don't think there is anything wrong with them not having scales. It's quite fascinating to me and many people.

I'm starting to disagree with the idea of continuing to produce scaleless snakes. I am not saying it is cruel to own a scaleless snake, but if people keep inbreeding the same lines of scaleless snakes, certain negative traits may come out that are undesirable.

If the snake seems healthy, if it eats, sheds, poops, there's no reason to believe it's unhealthy. I'm not disagreeing with anyone about whether it's cruel to keep a different creature. This is not about being accepting of diversity though, it is about selectively reproducing the trait.

If people breed for this trait continually, there may be some genetic deficiencies that arise from this inbreeding. Some breeders might be more interested in the money than the well being of future generations of snakes. I'm not saying that all breeders only care about only money. Spiders are known to have head wobbles. This could be because of this type of inbreeding to keep the trait, but I'm really not going to say that I know how it works. What I'm going to say is that if a degree of care isn't taken in the delicate process of introducing the scaleless morph, the money will overrule the well being of the snakes and every local pet shop may be trying to sell scaleless snakes that don't know how to balance.

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Originally Posted by ev477

I'm starting to disagree with the idea of continuing to produce scaleless snakes. I am not saying it is cruel to own a scaleless snake, but if people keep inbreeding the same lines of scaleless snakes, certain negative traits may come out that are undesirable.

If the snake seems healthy, if it eats, sheds, poops, there's no reason to believe it's unhealthy. I'm not disagreeing with anyone about whether it's cruel to keep a different creature. This is not about being accepting of diversity though, it is about selectively reproducing the trait.

If people breed for this trait continually, there may be some genetic deficiencies that arise from this inbreeding. Some breeders might be more interested in the money than the well being of future generations of snakes. I'm not saying that all breeders only care about only money. Spiders are known to have head wobbles. This could be because of this type of inbreeding to keep the trait, but I'm really not going to say that I know how it works. What I'm going to say is that if a degree of care isn't taken in the delicate process of introducing the scaleless morph, the money will overrule the well being of the snakes and every local pet shop may be trying to sell scaleless snakes that don't know how to balance.

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I would imagine that the scale-less morph would be produced like any other morph - determining if it is recessive (and creating hets by crossing with scaled animals to produce hets) or dominant, and breeding it to scaled animals, further diversifying the genes.

I wouldn't believe that there's any risk of not being able to outcross the animals to scaled and breeding them like any other recessive or dominant morph.

IE, the newest identified recessive morph of ball pythons, the tri-stripe, isn't contained to just a small pool of tri-stripes. The Sutherlands will be able to create hets by breeding to different normal girls and diversifying its bloodline.