UPDATE: HR2811 Amendment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neilgolli

If they are able to add anything to the Injurious Wildlife list regardless of any possible future exemptions for sale or interstate commerce, this is a huge loss / failure. They would be added without due scientific study, opening the doors wide open for easy access to anything in the future. Addition to the injurious list without due scientific research is akin to incarceration without due process or conviction.

Step by step we are walking ourselves down our own path to destruction by allowing them to change the rules to the game.

---

Unfortunately, a lot of them were probably under the impression that research had been done already with all the lies the environmentalists and animal rights activists have perpetrated about the subject, even though all of them have been determined false... Still, this thing moved way too quickly, and that alone scares the hell out of me. No law on anything should move that fast...

I can not get it to load either :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neilgolli

If they are able to add anything to the Injurious Wildlife list regardless of any possible future exemptions for sale or interstate commerce, this is a huge loss / failure. They would be added without due scientific study, opening the doors wide open for easy access to anything in the future. Addition to the injurious list without due scientific research is akin to incarceration without due process or conviction.

Step by step we are walking ourselves down our own path to destruction by allowing them to change the rules to the game.

---

I don't know Neil... I would have to say that I respectfully disagree with you on this one. How can you say that there was not due scientific research? Is it not a fact that burmese pythons have established themselves in South Florida and are multiplying? Is there not currently a hunt taking place right now to try to fix this problem? This is legitimately a BIG problem.

Sure they throw all kinds of other crap in with it like the snakes are man eaters and such..... but the bill is based almost completely on the fact that they are now a thriving species in South Florida... with no natural predator. And I would think it is safe to say that the scientific research done to date has proven this to be true.

In every war there will be battles that are lost. Thankfully our General (USARK) knows this, and has picked the right battle to loose (that was unwindable anyway) to insure overall victory of the war.

Mike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neilgolli

I cannot get it to load on my mac either anyone else in and watching?

---

You have to use RealNetworks Video Player. I don't care for that player, and chose to not load that sofware.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I don't know Neil... I would have to say that I respectfully disagree with you on this one. How can you say that there was not due scientific research? Is it not a fact that burmese pythons have established themselves in South Florida and are multiplying? Is there not currently a hunt taking place right now to try to fix this problem? This is legitimately a BIG problem.

Sure they throw all kinds of other crap in with it like the snakes are man eaters and such..... but the bill is based almost completely on the fact that they are now a thriving species in South Florida... with no natural predator. And I would think it is safe to say that the scientific research done to date has proven this to be true.

In every war there will be battles that are lost. Thankfully our General (USARK) knows this, and has picked the right battle to loose (that was unwindable anyway) to insure overall victory of the war.

Mike

---

Without expert testimony, only going on the theory that the problem is of the size they estimate is not nor should it be assumed what futures studies would conclude.

please read adams blog from yesterday, http://nohr669.com/blog/

"This is the first time ever that the US Congress, without testimony form experts or any facts based in real science, has attempted to ban a species that has been in the pet trade for decades. Pet owners should be very concerned."

"The ranking member, Rep Gohmert, called for scientific testimony so that he could make an informed decision. He stated that no one on the subcommittee was a reptile expert."

Regarding the hunt. Im very in-tuned to what is going on and yesterday mike cole and graziani took several reporters and others on a hunt. Mike left his house at 4 am, did not return until 930 am the following morning. They had several air boats and walked a dozen or so miles along "the epicenter" of the problem and found nothing all day (not a snake, not a skin, not a nest). This is the 3rd hunt and thus far only 1 snake has been found.

Im a member of the NRA, not because I support everything they believe in, but because they will defend to the end our rights, without compromise.

Using your war example, you cannot compromise with the enemy. The good guy will live up to his end of the bargain and the bad guy will almost always renig. I lived in Florida when the reptiles of concern permits were being considered and everyone said if we have this system in place they wont go any further, we can point to this law and how it can and needs to be enforced. Here we are, less than 2 years later and they took that victory and are now pushing for more. You give a little and a little and a little until you have nothing left.

Please check out the following pdf for more info on Injurious wildlife. To think a provision ON BEHALF OF BURMS will be included to allow for keeping, breeding, selling and transporting across states lines will happen is awfully hopeful thinking.



http://www.fws.gov/Contaminants/ANS/...tSheet2007.pdf

Neil,

I understand what you are saying... I really do.

But please let me ask you something that I think is VERY relevant to your argument.

Is there a single expert out there that would testify that there are not breeding Burmese Pythons in South Florida? If there is, how could they testify to that when there has already been proof of this found? This is after all the single fact that all this stuff is based on.

USARK did not compromise with the enemy. They gave the man a pizza so he would release 18 of his 20 hostages. Now that 18 of the innocent victims are out of this mess, we can start to work on getting the other 2 out with as little harm does as possible.

We're not signing the death warrant for our industry because a ball python will never kill a toddler. Period. Polititians aren't going to actively go looking for stuff to ban without some sort of event to cause the search. Maybe some poorly kept retic will do the same thing and they will throw another fit and add them to the Lacey act, God forbid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Neil,

I understand what you are saying... I really do.

But please let me ask you something that I think is VERY relevant to your argument.

Is there a single expert out there that would testify that there are not breeding Burmese Pythons in South Florida? If there is, how could they testify to that when there has already been proof of this found? This is after all the single fact that all this stuff is based on.

USARK did not compromise with the enemy. They gave the man a pizza so he would release 18 of his 20 hostages. Now that 18 of the innocent victims are out of this mess, we can start to work on getting the other 2 out with as little harm does as possible.

---

Mike, you are 100% correct regarding the burms in south florida HOWEVER once we start allowing them to bypass the steps necessary to make a fully educated risk assessment, we give up the right to ask for a full and fair fight when they come after anything else. I'm only arguing that they play by the rules they themselves established. We start handing out rubber stamps that then dictate how we live our life's and we are asking for a world of hurt. I don't argue that they may actually deserve to be on the list (not for 99% of the hype that is out there) I do argue that tossing out a sacrificial lamb is wrong.

I do not contend they only gave a guy a pizza. Call bob clark, call prehistoric pets, call anyone who breeds burms for a living, they will tell you, that they just gave up their right arm. They may get it back after back door maneuvering during the august recesses and get a pass to breed and sell across state lines but I don't think any of them are not going threw a good deal of pain right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hulihzack

We're not signing the death warrant for our industry because a ball python will never kill a toddler. Period. Polititians aren't going to actively go looking for stuff to ban without some sort of event to cause the search. Maybe some poorly kept retic will do the same thing and they will throw another fit and add them to the Lacey act, God forbid.

---

Politicians wont, but HSUS, peta and many many other groups will and they all have significant stock piles of cash and lobbyists. They will not stop and for us to allow congress to bypass their own system of checks and balances is wrong, and it will bite us in the butt.