Eggbound/slugs???... Not so much!!!

I know eggbinding and slugs can happen anywhere and anytime you breed, but I still say he could have waited at least one more year...or even do some off season breeding if she got up to WEIGHT before that.

I just don't think I'd want to risk my animals life with maybe a early pregnancy and would have at least waited to see what was happening with her another year from now.

I know it is a risk for any female, but taking an undersized, too-young female and breeding her just increases that risk.

I posted this breeding to foster discussion more than anything else -- I am glad it worked!! :)

This girl was 1200 grams when I started breeding her the first of December. Most of my girls eat MANY rats as they reach the second half of follicle development -- this girl ate ONCE during breeding -- hence the weight loss. She was never thin -- just not a long snake. Her mass was more than good for breeding. As many of you know, one can add the clutch weight and the females weight after post-lay to get a fairly accurate PRE-OVULATION weight.

I don't as a rule breed 1200 gram females -- which is my "personal minimum weight" for girls. I bred this girl because she will be 3 years old in June, her genetics, and because she told me privately that she wanted to be a mommy. Bill loves the family values!!!!

For me, the 2 things that could resonably happen were: she would not go or she would slug-out. I don't consider becoming eggbound a real/legitimate risk for a captive bred healthy animal. It is something you occasionally see from wild caught girls who are small, dehydrated, and generally unhealthy.

I am not saying eggbound animals is an "urban myth" and NEVER happens -- it does. But it is SO RARE among BALL PYTHONS that it is difficult to find many breeders that have encountered it. It is a condition that is FAR more common in colubrids and other long, skinny snakes that lay large quantity clutches.

The odds of one of my breeder males getting a respitory during a long stressful breeding season and dying -- now THAT is what keeps me up at night -- the sick feeling of discovering an open-mounthed breathing boy -- or even worse -- BUBBLES. Those are REAL worries!!!

I would inform/remind everyone that only a few years ago you were accused of trying to "kill your breeder male" if you even THOUGHT of breeding him before he was at least 1000 grams and 18 months old.

While I know I am far from having a "reckless breeding philosophy", I also do breed 500-600 gram 6-8 month old males with both regularity and success -- and have also bred 1600 gram 20-22 month old females from time to time. At no point do I consider I am risking their life more than any other snake I am "playing god" with.

I am a numbers/odds guy for the most part in all aspects of my life -- including breeding. Hell, I only get out of bed in the morning because the odds that I will be hit by a bus that given day are... SLIM at best -- I :confused: think??.

I have learned TONS about keeping and breeding from books, blogs, forums, a few breeder friends I respect, etc. -- and continue learning -- EVERY DAY! But NOTHING :colbert: can substitute for the first hand experience of tending and observing your animals, DOING BREEDING OF YOUR OWN, learning from both successes and failures, and... ROLLING THOSE DICE NOW AND AGAIN. :banana:

:banana:Good luck Bill. I got lucky that is all. I don't expect it to happen again!

Brock

These are the type of discussions that I enjoy. A few years ago, I was was very black/white and by the rules with my animals, and would have had much the same reaction as many of the others who have replied in this thread.

However, in those few years, I've had the opportunity to speak to different well respected breeders and hobbiests and you know what? No two did things exactly the same! There are no hard, fast, consistent "rules" if you will to keeping and breeding ball pythons. There are guidelines that are generally considered safe to share with those new to keeping ball pythons or new to breeding them.

The longer you work with them, the more you learn to read your animals. This is not Bill's first season breeding. That female WAS in her third winter, and I have no doubt that if Bill felt her body condition would put this girl at risk when he made the decision, he would not have bred her.

I've seen others who thought outside the box and pushed the limits. It was Jasballs who got even the big breeders to re-consider the weight that they first bred males. Like Bill said, a few years ago, it was unheard of to breed males less than 800 grams (he said 1000, 800 was the "rule" I was told). Now Larry and BT talk about breeding smaller males, I've heard Ralph talk about breeding younger smaller males, and many others.

It took one person to understand their animals and read their animals and be willing to push the envelope to change the entire ball python breeding industry's way of thinking.

I'm not in any way suggesting that a new person in their first or even second year of breeding should take a small girl and breed her. I'd still recommend to someone new to stick to the 1500 gram minimum, as to recommend any smaller to someone with limited experience reading their animals would be reckless on my part.

However, I have no problem with those with more experience sharing their experiences with us. That's how we grow, how we learn.

Kudo's Bill! And I hope you hit on those odds!

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Originally Posted by Coils

Isn't it pretty much a rule that you should wait until a female's third winter and they are 1500 grams in weight...tops, before breeding them?

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That is some peoples rule. There are many other breeders who breed smaller with no issues. I started a poll about this issue. Adam Wysocki posted a very informative response to my post on his thoughts / experience with this issue. Here is the link: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...females&page=3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

That is some peoples rule. There are many other breeders who breed smaller with no issues. I started a poll about this issue. Adam Wysocki posted a very informative response to my post on his thoughts / experience with this issue. Here is the link: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...females&page=3

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My favorite part of Adam's post (bold added by me) is:

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There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... Experiment, try things, learn ... Rise and fall on your own experiences ... Don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

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