Cinnamon/Black Pastel

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Originally Posted by Kevin_Hornby

Well wouldn't the easy way to prove it be to breed a cinnamon to a black pastel and see if you get any supers? If you get a super it would mean they are the same right? If they are different then they would make something new..

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It's been done...

Super is a variation of color between the Black Super and the Cinny Super.

If you breed a mojave to a lesser don't you get a bel. So those that make them the same 2

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Originally Posted by snakedork

If you breed a mojave to a lesser don't you get a bel. So those that make them the same 2

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If that is your train of thought...

Then all of these are the same:

Mojave
Lesser
Butter
Het Russo
.....


The list goes on..

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

If that is your train of thought...

Then all of these are the same:

Mojave
Lesser
Butter
Het Russo
.....


The list goes on..

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and I would guess that would be where I have my opinion they arent the same. Because to me.. Most all those when a combo with something else doesnt look the same. And even though the super may be similar I am on the page that there is a genetic difference somewhere or they would look the same..

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Originally Posted by shadi11

and I would guess that would be where I have my opinion they arent the same. Because to me.. Most all those when a combo with something else doesnt look the same. And even though the super may be similar I am on the page that there is a genetic difference somewhere or they would look the same..

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I agree with you.

I am of the mindset that they are not the same. They are similar, yes.. But not the same.. Not at all.

Doesn't this look like a Black Pastel?

Does this look like a Cinnamon?

I honestly think alot of the problem is theres quite a few people who only consider them one. So it doesnt matter what diferences they have they are called the same name to that person. Even though they each should have their own characteristics. You will see on many pages that people say black pastel, cinnamon thru the whole page.
So my question for you then I guess would be do you think the Het Russo and the Mojave are the same because the super is the same even though they both look totally different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shadi11

I honestly think alot of the problem is theres quite a few people who only consider them one. So it doesnt matter what diferences they have they are called the same name to that person. Even though they each should have their own characteristics. You will see on many pages that people say black pastel, cinnamon thru the whole page.
So my question for you then I guess would be do you think the Het Russo and the Mojave are the same because the super is the same even though they both look totally different.

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NO!
Good question. I dont know how to explain it properly but the BEL is not just a super, it is a total lack of pigmentation while the super cin/blckpstl is all-over one colour pigmentation.
The BEL is confusing because there are so many combo's that can produce it. I'm definitely not an expert, hopefully someone who knows more can tell us the nitty gritty on BELs.

thinking about this more I have to say it with alleles.
cinnamon and black pastel are different alleles that use the same locus, the same way that mojaves, butters, lessers etc are different alleles that use the same locus.
The mutations are different, so each has a seperate phenotype(look)but because they occupy the same locus the homozygenous(super) form is similar. not exactly the same, ie super mojave vs super lesser.
I hope I got this right.. ppl feel free to shoot me down lol:D

I think they are different. The cinny's have a very unique color to them and the black pastels have funky alien heads. The only way to describe is is the alien heads have a sort of pattern inside of the brownish area....hopefully you guys can understand what I'm trying to say :weirdface

There are a few difference in the black pastels and cinnamon pastels.

One of the differences is a subtle difference in color. The black pastels are a very deep brown to the point of black with high gold. The cinny pastels are a deep dark burnt brown with a faded gold. Now obviously this can vary slightly from snake to snake.

Both pastels can produce a super form of a total black python, but when you bring a normal pastel into the lines it changes it up. Pastel x cinny will get you a pewter. Black pastel x pastel will get you a black pewter. Carrying it further...
Pewter x Pewter will produce a sterling. Black pewter x black pewter will get you a silver streak. Comparing a silver streak to a sterling there is a considerable (and almost always) different type of pattern.

Furthermore, black pastels have had bad genes past on to a lot of them due to early line breeding (similar the the "wobble" spiders from the nerd line). Mishapen heads, upturned nostrils and mouths, and facial deformities are common in them.

Definately not the same snake. Similar... but not the same.