I am not a believer -do you think you can convert me?

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

When I hear language such as "recycled" etc. it irks me.

This is not just random info that is being vomitted up for the sake of having something to type, but rather the collective qualitative experiences of myriad people that keep large numbers of BPs and have collections of thriving BPs.

Keep multiple BPs for an extended period, and throw caution to the wind and employ laissez-faire BP keeping and see how well they thrive.

If we were merely recycling info then all those early 80's manuals on BP husbandry would still be in print and not just being handed over when we rescue snakes that are near death.

The majority of these "recycled" guidelines are for new keepers that need a definitive set of rules that will ensure their snakes are well started and thriving. Most of us that promote them, may not even use them. Once you start keeping multiple snakes and you have a system that meets all the requirements, then you can start funking it up all you want while still meeting the snakes' needs.

The problems with people that are new, do not implement specific husbandry requirements, is that they make decisions on what they LIKE/WANT and not what the snake/s NEED.

That is a critical factor.

Stress is cumulative in a BP and without a proper understanding of BP behaviour and environmental needs, stress is often interpretated as "Look! The happy fuzzy lovey snakey wants to be picked up and draped around my shoulders while I shower it with kisses!!!"

I do not implement the newbie guidelines, for my established snakes, but I do implement them to a T when I get a rescued BP, and I know that those recycled guidelines can guarantee that I will get even the most stubborn BP eating again. I have received snakes that had been off feed for close to a year, and they usually eat for me within two weeks.

My established snakes still get all their needs met, but within a minimilistic framework. But I also know how to meet those needs. Where did I learn this? From other more experienced keepers and through trial and error implementation.

My arrogance and desire to give my snakes novel experience has definitely cost them at times, but that was part of the learning experience, that is why I will always admit to those mistakes in the hopes that others can learn from them.

Just my 0.02 dollars.

Bruce

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That was fairly well stated. This will work best if it is kept as a discussion. I can fully understand that there may be special rules for rescue situations. I especially like your point about starting out with guidelines at first and then with time, experimenting with changes. That said, I was by no means suggesting a laissez-faire rule.

To clerify my point about recycled information I would like to say that too often, we (and by we I mean mankind as a whole) make the mistake of taking others word as gospel. At the risk of seeming a little corny, I would like to tell a story I hope can clarify my point of view.

One day a woman was cooking a ham. Her daughter who was only 6 years old said, "Mommy, why do you cut the ends off the ham before you put it in the oven"? Her mother replied, "Well, I do it because it is how I learned to do it from your grandmother". The girl pondered her mothers response and went to the living room to see her grandmother. While she was there she said to her grandmother, "Grandma, why do you cut the ends off the ham before you put it in the oven"? Her grandmother replied, "Well, I do it because it is how I learned to do it from your great grandmother". The girl pondered her grandmothers response and went to the dining room to see her great grandmother. While she was there she said to her great grandmother, "Great grandma, why do you cut the ends off the ham before you put it in the oven"? Her great grandmother replied, "Because the ham was always too big for the pan".

My wish is that people could use a little more critical thinking when tackling any new learning experience. Or at the very least, lets have a discussion and look at the possibility that theories are progressive and often change.

Jimmy

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

Okay, I write this post with respect and a willingness to learn. However, I am having a hard time believing the following "recycled" statements (both of which I happen to abide by):

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

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When I had 2 different hides for my Caspie, she did exactly as you described. She stayed in the one she preferred 24/7. In the wild she'd have a lot more selection in where she wants to be. But in her tub, I am forcing her to thermoregulate using two hides only. Now that I use two identical hides, she alternates between the two hides equally; that is proper thermoregulation.

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2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

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Just look at WHERE your snake spends most of his time. Or, just take out a ball python and watch what he does. My own snakes quickly head for the tiniest, darkest places where it's impossible to get them out. I think many owners can attest to this too. That's simply how they feel most comfortable.

Now say you take a horse, and let him out for awhile. He probably won't try and stuff himself into some tiny crevice in the ground; rather he will prefer running about in pasture, grazing; furthermore he will be able to thrive with a social group of other horses.

Thus: Horse gets his pasture, and snake gets his hidey-holes. You wouldn't keep a horse in a tiny cramped cage, and you also shouldn't keep a ball python in a gigantic enclosure!

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I would argue against these two theories based on the life of ball pythons in their natural environments. Having said that, I understand there are things you would not allow to happen with captive animals that happen in the wild.

For instance, I understand that many feed f/t because of the fear of rodents biting the snake. In this case, the naturalist would argue that if they eat live in the wild they should be able to do the same in captivity? In theory, this is true. Snakes in the wild feed live and probably get bitten. The difference is, in the wild the snake dies and balance is maintained. However, in captivity the owner is out anywhere from 100-20,000 dollars! So, in that case I could see how the natural environment theory would not hold any water.

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I think you have answered your own question. The snake's not in the wild; he's in an enclosure made by his owner. It is the OWNER'S responsibility to ensure the snake's health and well being. We try to SIMULATE the snake's natural environment, because the snake has evolved over millions of years to that environment, and that environment is where the snake will thrive. However, where the natural environment and the enclosure do not match up is where we have to adjust - see explanation about the two identical hides.

That being said, I feed frozen/thawed mainly because it is convenient to me and most of my snakes will accept it, and it is not any worse for them than live. I have one ball that will only accept live, and I have no issues feeding him live. I don't buy much into the argument that feeding live will cause serious injury to the snake, provided that the feeding is SUPERVISED and the rodent is not left in with the snake for extended periods of time. Like you said, the snake can't flee from the rodent, so we as KEEPERS must provide it with the protection it would gain from fleeing in the wild.

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Nevertheless, I do not know if there is evidence or a good theory that could suggest that BP's in the wild are dying/living shorter lives because they could not find an identical burrow to hide in or that they will not eat anymore because they left their 3 - 4.5 square foot territory.

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You will quickly find out that most of the "community accepted" herp husbandry is not based on scientific evidence, but rather what has worked for hobbyists over long periods of time, and what has resulted in the healthiest animals who eat regularly and produce the best offspring. Herp-keeping is in fact the infant of the pet-keeping world.

All the advice I have given, and others have given, is advice we believe to be true and that has worked for our snakes. Like I said above, I am working under the philosophy that I must try and simulate my snakes' natural environment, but adjust my techniques for areas where husbandry and wild differ. But things can change, and there are some things that are not set in stone. I wouldn't go off thinking you can make up your own rules and have your snake thrive on them, but start out by taking advice from those snake-keepers before you and maybe you can build on them in future years as you gain more experience!

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Hrm, the claim that a Ball will be more likely to be bit when eating f/t regularly seems a bit off in my experience. My adult male has gone extremely long periods of time only eating f/t and I have given him lives and he has had no problem killing them. And yes he will bite in the wrong place with f/t but he hits nicely every time he is offered a live.

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I could not speak on my BP. Once I switched him to f/t, I have not gone back. When eating live he has always had a good and safe wrap. I have had him less than a year and when he strikes a f/t my BP still has a good wrap. Perhaps because I warm it under a lamp after warming from the freezer on my cage to put off smell. The head is always closet to the light and that is where he strikes. I am glad you have not had a bad incident. My CA king on the other hand strikes it's prey anywhere, often in a manor that would be dangerous. As much as I would like to test this idea with my king and a live prey, the consequnces of a bite are not worth it to me.

Interesting that your BP strike sloppy on f/t and not live. Perhaps because I live mouse would give of more heat from his head?

I think it's because it's moving around more, he misses it from time to time, and it actually does things. Where as when he misses the frozen it's still there, it isn't running I just dangle it for him, and he'll grab its butt or it's side or wherever he lands the strike. He perks up a lot more when going after a live, he watches it and pays close attention to it, then he hits it, almost always on the side of the head/neck area, and then he constricts it. The back legs on the mouse/rat kick, but the rest of it can't move and it's face is never close enough to his body to bite him. He's never hit the back end of a live.

But man is he a lot more active when I feed him live.

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

.... To clerify my point about recycled information I would like to say that too often, we (and by we I mean mankind as a whole) make the mistake of taking others word as gospel. At the risk of seeming a little corny, I would like to tell a story I hope can clarify my point of view. ....

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The difference between the information many folks here give out...and the "regurgitated" information in the "ham story" is that almost anyone here can tell you WHY it is suggested that two similar hides be used....or a smaller enclosure....or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with asking "Why???"....but it does bother me that someone (not necessarily you, but we've heard this before) suggests that we don't know what we're talking about just because the same basic guidelines are shared by so many.

Hi,

Just a quick question - have you tried heating the head of the F/T more than the body to see if he keys in on that part?


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just a quick question - have you tried heating the head of the F/T more than the body to see if he keys in on that part?


dr del

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Great point!

Worked for me. That was the only way my BP will regularly accept f/t

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Hrm, the claim that a Ball will be more likely to be bit when eating f/t regularly seems a bit off in my experience. My adult male has gone extremely long periods of time only eating f/t and I have given him lives and he has had no problem killing them. And yes he will bite in the wrong place with f/t but he hits nicely every time he is offered a live.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just a quick question - have you tried heating the head of the F/T more than the body to see if he keys in on that part?


dr del

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

To clerify my point about recycled information I would like to say that too often, we (and by we I mean mankind as a whole) make the mistake of taking others word as gospel.

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I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of time, energy and reflexivity that goes into those that keep snakes...

The non-reflexive keepers are the ones that die a loud, fast, and fiery death on snake forums due to their inability to take in new information and evaluate it.

I consider myself to have impeccable husbandry and QT, and I firmly believe that I know enough about BPs to keep them healthy and thriving, but my first snake died from years of improper husbandry.

I got him and the information on how to keep him from someone that was doing everything counter to what was suggested. She just knew what it was he wanted and liked VS. what was considered gospel. I continued that. When I came online and found out it was all "wrong" I was indignant.

Snake was happy, snake was lovely, snake was eager to "play". Well snake died, and this was after I implemented proper husbandry and got him eating and unlearned all this misinformation.

I have no issue with people wanting to question husbandry information, but too often keepers come online and put the oenus (sp?) on US to teach them and convince them without doing their research.

People take the time and energy to "train" new keepers and those recieving the information may continually question it and take issue with it.

Answer those questions hundreds of times, and as Judy noted, you will quickly learn a short-hand method of disseminating information. I figure if someone asks and I give them that information, it is not up to ME to convince them WHY, but rather it is up the them to take that information and compare it to their own research.

THAT is what being a reflexive keeper is about.

Bruce

And yes... I consider this to still be a discussion...

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Originally Posted by JLC

B
None of the "laws" you have chosen to ask to be converted to are "laws" at all. They are suggestions.

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In my defense :oops: Using " " may imply I said laws. That could get confusing if people are reading all the posts and forget what I actually said. Also, I want to clarify that the thread title I chose was meant to have a playful tone. I am always up for a friendly discussion/debate.

It is amazing how you really cannot tell what a person is feeling when you converse over the internet. For instance, you used a ;) at the end of your post. I am quite sure you were implying that you enjoyed the opportunity to join this discussion. However, at first I was thinking... what, did she just wink at me as if to say nice try buddy, quit being such a jerk. This is why I keep telling my mom and my sister to stop confronting each other over email... lol. I guess that is why it has taken me until I am 27 to use a forum.

Jimmy