» Site Navigation
0 members and 784 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 47,180, 07-16-2025 at 05:30 PM.
» Today's Birthdays
» Stats
Members: 75,905
Threads: 249,107
Posts: 2,572,120
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
|
-
Re: boas and ibd
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohyeahnow
Starmom, I am glad that you have sucessfully kept boas and pythons without problems. Using care as you do goes a long way. IBD is not fully understood as far as all the means of transmission go, and airborn transmission has been discussed in research as a possible cause, as has ability of boas to be carriers showing no signs. Since you have acess to data bases as I myself do at the local university perhaps you could do some research and help educate us all. Thanks for your input. I am happy you have healthy snakes and practice good husbandry.
Here is one journal article I found and an excerpt:
"Because
boas may be asymptomatic carriers, some authors advise that
pythons should not be kept together with boas, or even in the
same collection (Bennett 1996, Keeble 2004)." https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf
The references for this article will provide anyone interested with acess to journal databases a lot of peer reviewed journal articles for education.
Excellent link - greater than 33% of boas examined post-mortem.......I thought the Merck manual number may have been too high, but 33% is not much of an improvement........
-
Re: boas and ibd
skiploder, sorry to hear about your encounter, I hope everything works out for you. It seems that you know a lot about this condition and I appreciate your input. I have read a few articles, but saved this one because it mentioned the possibility of spread outside of boas and pythons. Having a California King and three corn snakes, I found this article interesting. About twenty years ago I owned a boa and two pythons. While I would love another boa, I will wait untill more is understood about this disease. Hoping a cure and transmission methods can be determined one day for sure.
-
Re: boas and ibd
skiploader: I now understand that your passion on this subject is rooted in your current experiences. I am so very sorry this drama is happening to your snakes.
It is really difficult to post any numbers or statistics given that there has been such a lack of reliable and duplicated research on all things not warm and fuzzy; ie. snakes and etc.
However, what has changed for you? You practiced good husbandry, your other snakes are fine, your boas are in QT but thus far all tests have come back negative.... I must be missing something. I would think that after 5 years, if IBD were airborn (even for just this one time) your other snakes would have gotten the virus.....
I don't know; I really think I'm missing something that you're saying... and so I take responsibility for that.
I still maintain that boas obtained from clean and reliable breeders, strict and long QT periods, and excellent husbandry skills, Ball and boas can be kept within the same building without adverse effects. :)
-
Re: boas and ibd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
Not to beat a dead horse but why even recommend a quarantine period when the disease can be asymptomatic for years in boas? Let's agree perhaps that with pythons species, a quarantine is probably effective.........for boas - probably not.
I'm too afraid to add boas to my BP collection because of fear of IBD, but if I did add a boa, I'd go with something I read online and quarantine a young BP with the Boa. If the BP gets sick and the necropsy shows IBD, euthanize the boa. If they're both healthy in 3 months, you're probably OK.
-
Re: boas and ibd
Harsh, but effective I'd think....
-
Re: boas and ibd
starmom,
I can not speak for skiploader, but I got the impression that skiploader was speaking about the unknown aspects aspects of IBD and one theory than it might be possible for airborne transmission. There are too many variables in how a disease can be transmitted to conclude that if airborne is a possibility the other snakes would be infected. Think of the common cold. In a school or workplace not everyone becomes infected when one person has a cold, yet it can be spread airborne. http://www.avianinfluenza.com.au/fac...ions_nov05.pdf
Until more is known about IBD, it will be hard to drawn definitive conclusions. I do see your points and they are valid. I also agree that boas and pythons can be kept in the same building without adverse effects. I am not sure if such would be the case if a boa was a carrier of IBD. Still learning here, and would love to read any information you have found on the topic. Especially any articles from peer reviewed journals, as these usually have the most recent information and undergo the scrutiny of other experts in the field. I am very happy that you are able to have kept boas and pythons together. I did twenty years ago without problems, but refrain from doing so. I would not want to infect my python or other species of snakes because a boa was an asymptomatic carrier.
-
Re: boas and ibd
Quote:
Originally Posted by starmom
Harsh, but effective I'd think....
agreed. I guess the thought would be if he were to have a boa, it would be better to lose two snakes than an entire collection, due to IBD.
-
Re: boas and ibd
Quote:
Originally Posted by starmom
skiploader: I now understand that your passion on this subject is rooted in your current experiences. I am so very sorry this drama is happening to your snakes.
It is really difficult to post any numbers or statistics given that there has been such a lack of reliable and duplicated research on all things not warm and fuzzy; ie. snakes and etc.
However, what has changed for you? You practiced good husbandry, your other snakes are fine, your boas are in QT but thus far all tests have come back negative.... I must be missing something. I would think that after 5 years, if IBD were airborn (even for just this one time) your other snakes would have gotten the virus.....
I don't know; I really think I'm missing something that you're saying... and so I take responsibility for that.
I still maintain that boas obtained from clean and reliable breeders, strict and long QT periods, and excellent husbandry skills, Ball and boas can be kept within the same building without adverse effects. :)
I have a dedicated herp building. The dwarf boas were moved 6 months ago from a 41 qt rack to 3x2 cages. I sanitized the racks, and moved the smaller pythons into it.
The boas have always been in a separate room (albeit in the same building). The manner of transmission (if it ever turns out that they have IBD) would be either airborne, from aerosolized particles on my clothing, or from the rack.
A biopsy on another organ may be in order. All but two of my male pythons in the rack are now shedding and eating regularly. My options are to wait until another animal shows signs and have it biopsied or wait and see if one of the pythons succumbs.
My dwarves came from a very respected breeder. He and I have talked and at this point I'm not ready to accuse him of anything. As I am finding out, and as reports have now indicated, any where from 33 to 50% of necropsied boas have tested positive for the disease. I just don't like those odds - especially when you take into account that a boa can live with the disease and potentially not show symptoms for a very, very long time.
-
Re: boas and ibd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
Be very careful on what you recommend.
Theories on transmission include that it may be airborne.
Who's theory is this? Every vet I've talked to say that IBD is strictly contagious to fluids passing to and fro other snakes. Which means- Mites, feces, or sex.
Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms
Considered is the keyword there. It's also been considered that IBD originated from Green Burms too. That it was passed to and fro with Boas being housed with Burms back in the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
50% of those tested?
I'm guessing the only reason a test is done is because something is wrong, right? I'm not going to sacrifice a completely healthy snake to be tested. Would you? Thus, 100% of those tested had problems to begin with, showing signs of IBD before death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
Recommending a quarantine period on a disease that many never manifest any symptoms (in the case of boas) is pointless. While the animal is quietly carrying the disease without any outward signs, it can be infecting other animals.
Only adult boas are known to carry IBD for long periods of time. Baby Boas will die as quickly as Ball Pythons (or other snakes) when introduced to it. This is the main way people learn they have it in their collection. Their baby boas die off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
Several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections.
Most people have gotten incorrect information about IBD from unreliable or inaccurate sources. I would suggest that anyone interested in what is currently known about the disease research Dr. Jacobson's work at UF.
Can you name any? I know of 2 people who've had IBD in their collection right off hand. One of those is heresay, the other (BWSmith) was very public about his problems and still has a few babies he had during this whole dilemma and is most probably the most educated person about this topic I know. He had live biopsies done on his whole collection and had to put down the majority of that collection. He still has a few remaining boas that were at his house during his breakout.
-
Re: boas and ibd
I'm also going to go and say that I know many large scale boa breeders who've had collections for longer than I've most likely been alive.
Here's a nice write up on Pete Kahl's site, probably the world's largest boa breeder:
Quote:
The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred but it is not implicated in all cases of infection.
You have symptoms in your collection? Where did you acquire the boas? How old were they? What were your quarantine procedures? Did you ever have any breakout of mites in your collection? Why would you use (even if disinfected with 9 tons of bleach) a rack that may have ha a "airborne" infected snake in it at any given time for any other snake?
|