May not work after all

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Originally Posted by jglass38

To each his own, but how can you tell they are cramped? I have most of my adult girls and all of my adult males in 32qt tubs and none of them are cramped, or at least they haven't told me so. :P

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I have a couple of bigger snakes in 32 qt tubs and the rest of the bigger snakes in 3x2x1 reptile cages. The snakes in tubs can't get away from their waste and so lie in it until early morning when I clean them. The balls in cages never lay in their waste since they have room to get away from it. To me this suggests that there might be a limit as to how minimal a ball python would go were they able to choose their own living spaces :)

I have an 825 gram female pied in a 6qt hatchling rack. I've moved her into a 15 qt rack and every time I move her she stop's eating. Even with a hide box So, for now she stays in a hatchling rack.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I have a couple of bigger snakes in 32 qt tubs and the rest of the bigger snakes in 3x2x1 reptile cages. The snakes in tubs can't get away from their waste and so lie in it until early morning when I clean them. The balls in cages never lay in their waste since they have room to get away from it. To me this suggests that there might be a limit as to how minimal a ball python would go were they able to choose their own living spaces :)

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Not sure this proves anything, but whatever works for you is what you should do. For me, all but the largest girls and all adult males go in 32qt sweaterboxes. They all eat, defecate, grow, shed and breed.

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Originally Posted by bigballs

i agree that ball pythons do better in smaller enclosures but i think that there can be too small an enclosure for a ball python. i think the 32 qt is too small so a 28 qt is definitely too small for a full grown male or female. sure some may eat and even breed in those things but that doesnt mean they should be kept in there for life. if people want to keep em all cramped, hey thats your thing but personally i feel its wrong to take advantage of their minimal space requirements.

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totally agree.i truly feel sorry for a animal that can fart on one side and smell it on the other.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

To each his own, but how can you tell they are cramped? I have most of my adult girls and all of my adult males in 32qt tubs and none of them are cramped, or at least they haven't told me so. :P

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how can you tell they are not cramped?;) i guess until one actually speaks up we will never know.

I might be new to snakes, but im not new to simple life things. Animals need space, whether they use it all the time or not. Sure some might say that in the wild they spend 90% of their time in a hole in the ground, but that other 10%, however long it lasts time wise, they are able to move around freely and not have to worry about limitations. They are able to stretch their body out entirely, not always curled up.

Imagine as a person (we too are animals), sitting all day long, it's possible, but DEFINATELY not advised, sure we might have more serious health issues if we do, but think of the comfort factor.

How would you feel if you saw someone keeping a big German Shepard dog in a cage all day, or a small yard even. Lion in a zoo compared to the plains of Africa.

Just my thoughts

P.S. I really hope I dont offend anyone!!!

I like this site:)

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Originally Posted by starmom

I have a couple of bigger snakes in 32 qt tubs and the rest of the bigger snakes in 3x2x1 reptile cages. The snakes in tubs can't get away from their waste and so lie in it until early morning when I clean them. The balls in cages never lay in their waste since they have room to get away from it. To me this suggests that there might be a limit as to how minimal a ball python would go were they able to choose their own living spaces :)

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Not sure this proves anything, but whatever works for you is what you should do. For me, all but the largest girls and all adult males go in 32qt sweaterboxes. They all eat, defecate, grow, shed and breed.

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I agree that this proves nothing, which is why I was careful to use the word "suggest". ;)

Good research begins with observations of animal behaviors. Given that there has not been a lot of research on ball pythons, that I am aware of and/or have been able to find, I believe that the herp community has a responsibility to take note of the behaviors of these snakes so to improve our husbandry skills.

I offered up my observations of my snakes' behaviors to suggest that, for the open mind, there are always new things to be learned from our animal brethren generally, ball pythons specifically, and that perhaps what might be convenient for the multiple snake keeper could perhaps not be the best way to keep these snakes. :)

Smaller tubs vs bigger display cages.

After all, I think it has a lot to do with our own preferences/needs that we later on try to input as snakes preferences/needs..

Don´t get me wrong, but these snakes are very tolerant so when something we like or find appropriate to us works with the snakes... we (naturally) tend to say that that is the BEST way with these snakes.

I prefere larger display cages and (so far) have a limited number of snakes and therefore room for bigger cages. As long as the cage is well designed and heated, it works well for the snakes (at least so far it has been) and the result is also visually pleasing. So, I favor bigger cages.

But I know human nature (at least myself..) so I suspect that if I needed to keep them in racks (due to number and/or lack of space) and if it worked well also, I would probably feel that racks with tubs would be the way to go.

Having said that, I should say that I feel that in a bigger cage you have hides + (some) room for exercise (not only to move), while in - most of - the racks I´ve seen, the tub IS the hide. So, basically, the snakes live their entire life in the hide.

The only real difference I've noticed between large BP's kept in 32qt. tubs vs those kept in larger display tanks is that the snakes kept in the larger enclosures seem to be much more active when handled.