In blue?

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Originally Posted by teebyrd393

I'm a new owner...my baby BP Jade has refused food the last two times offered...has actually shown no interest, where as previously had a biweekly feeding with fuzzies. Upon closer inspection, her eyes look clouded bluish (I think that's the term "in blue"). Skin looks dull and sharply wrinkled at body's angles. I've added damp moss to her plastic hide and upped the humidity the best I can...it's at 72 right now. Am I right??? Is this the beginning of her first shed? I feed f/t and have wasted 3 now that she hasn't taken...I can wait until her shed is over to offer food again, right? Thank you :)

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Your snake needs to be eating once every 5 to 7 days depending on her age and weight. One appropriately sized prey animal is usually sufficient (occasionally two). Fuzzy mice if that's what you are feeding are not enough for a growing young BP, especially when fed only twice per month.

Some snakes will eat in shed, some will not. I always offer anyways and let the snake make that call. Here are two link to help you understand the shedding process more fully and also to help if the shed goes wrong.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=28794

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=43403

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Originally Posted by teebyrd393

Thank you all so much for clarifying the process. I will get a digi and weigh her...not sure of her age...I really wanted to know but I got her at a pet shop and the "specialist" (haha) in the reptile dept didn't know the date they were hatched. I will post all the info. soon. Thanks for your help!

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Most pet store "specialists" do not have the knowledge or real experience in proper husbandry to be of any good use to you. I do however apologize to those that are members here that struggle at their jobs to do right by the snake while working under a poor corporate policy.

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Originally Posted by teebyrd393

just weighed her....she'd 105g

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At 105 grams she should be eating every 5 days. You could offer either a good sized mouse hopper or a rat fuzzy/very small rat pup at that age which would likely be just right for that snake.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Give her a rat pup...

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I'd have to disagree with that statement. Rat pups can be anything from a rat as young as 15 days when it's eyes open to a rat that is close to weaning age of anywhere from 3.5 to 5 weeks of age. That's a HUGE difference in prey size and a snake of only 105 grams is not likely to easily deal with a fat 5 week old pup. In this specific instance a large fuzzy rat or a very young pup rat would be the better suggestion I believe. Also this snake has been fed a very small prey item and I believe when doing prey increases it's best to slowly step that up and see how it goes over a few feedings.

I think with a new owner we all need to be very aware of giving extremely specific instructions so they don't end up with the wrong prey size and in the case of live feeding, a potentially harmful situation.

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

I have a question here (i'm not trying to steal your thread), but Rat pups are bigger or smaller than fuzzy rats? I have a 139g BP and he is on fuzzies atm and they seem good size for him.

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Rat pups as I mentioned above can be a lot bigger than rat fuzzies. Basically with rats it goes like this....

Rat pink - a rat from birth to about 8 or 9 days of age, they have no fur, their ears are flat to the skull and their eyes are closed, they are fully dependent on their mother's milk to survive....

Rat pinks very soon after their birth. Note the cherry red color of the newly born rat. Note also how clean and free of blood the birthing area is, rats are very efficient birthers. :)
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ndbabies-1.jpg

These pinks are 4 days old and have lost the redness of birth. You can see their colors and patterns developing already. They are also significantly bigger than they were just a few days before.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ayoldpinks.jpg

See the white areas I circled. These are milkbands visible in pink rats. When I'm monitoring our colony I check for these to make sure the mother rats are nursing properly. When I'm feeding off pinky rats I pick ones with big milkbands. A bit of extra calcium and nutrients for my snakes.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2.../Milkbands.jpg

Rat Fuzzies (also called Crawlers) - these are rats between 8 to 9 days of age and up to about 14 or 15 days of age, their eyes are still closed, their ears are still flat to the skull but they have developed a shiny pelt much like a baby seal, they are still fully dependent on their mother's milk....

Here are very typical fuzzy rats. These are young fuzzies not near the pup stage yet.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...of11Sept06.jpg

Here is a litter of fuzzies that are just becoming pups. Some have their eyes fully open, others are just starting to peek out at the world.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...chesLitter.jpg

A small pup from the above litter, note his eyes are just opened and his ears are just start to become erect as he enters the pup stage of life....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...escutebaby.jpg

Rat pups - defined as any rat from age 14 to 15 days of age until weaning. Weaning can be as early as 3.5 weeks or as late as 5 weeks.

So skip forward only about 3 weeks from those little fuzzies/just becoming pups you see above and you get this. A pile of very big rat pups! See the huge growth potential in the pup stage. You can barely see their mother under the pile of huge pups. They were actually weaned later that same day at just under 5 weeks of age. Picking the right size, especially in the huge growth potential of the rat pup stage can be a bit tricky LOL.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...itterMar07.jpg

For size comparison, this is a weaned male rat pictured with his fully mature father. He's likely about 8 weeks of age in this picture. His father was about 600 or so grams which is about the norm for my big male breeder rats.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Supernova1.jpg

This is why as part of keeping snakes it's vital to understand prey too. What the life stages of prey are, the sizes available within each life stage, etc. Then you can make informed prey choices. :)

Here is a handy chart...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2.../sizechart.jpg

Here is a great pic (credit to www.themousefactory.com) to show the stages of rats....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...20Info/rat.jpg

and of mice.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...0Info/mice.jpg

Thank you so much for all that info! I have to appoligize for my use of the term "biweekly". By that I meant that she gets two fuzzies per week...tues and sat are the days I usually feed her. Sorry for the confusion....I haven't been able to find rat pups f/t where I go...As far as my options I have fuzzies, mice, small rats-jumbo rats. Would a full size mouse be more appropriate?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

...I'd have to disagree with that statement. Rat pups can be anything from a rat as young as 15 days when it's eyes open to a rat that is close to weaning age of anywhere from 3.5 to 5 weeks of age. That's a HUGE difference in prey size and a snake of only 105 grams is not likely to easily deal with a fat 5 week old pup. In this specific instance a large fuzzy rat or a very young pup rat would be the better suggestion I believe. Also this snake has been fed a very small prey item and I believe when doing prey increases it's best to slowly step that up and see how it goes over a few feedings.

I think with a new owner we all need to be very aware of giving extremely specific instructions so they don't end up with the wrong prey size and in the case of live feeding, a potentially harmful situation...

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Yeah, I agree :gj: I always forget that there is a huge difference in gram weight with each of these rodent categories and I was sloppy to not give the gram weight along with the category name. My bad!! :bow: :D

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Originally Posted by teebyrd393

Thank you so much for all that info! I have to appoligize for my use of the term "biweekly". By that I meant that she gets two fuzzies per week...tues and sat are the days I usually feed her. Sorry for the confusion....I haven't been able to find rat pups f/t where I go...As far as my options I have fuzzies, mice, small rats-jumbo rats. Would a full size mouse be more appropriate?

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What's appropriate really depends on your feeding decisions and what this snake is used to eating. If she's been on mice you might want to continue with that type of prey for now (or even the rest of her life...there's no absolute need to go to rats). If this snake is used to live, then changing over to f/t might be an issue.

Also then comes the issue of "full size" for mice. I've seen mice offered that are marked "adult" and are barely bigger than a mouse fuzzy. Basically just get a good idea of her biggest girth and then go find the prey that you can get consistently, of a top quality and she will eat it. Back when I was new to snakes and having to drive 40 minutes round trip to buy rats (and paying a gawd awful price for them to boot!) I literally took my hand and measured girths. Then I would pick through feeders at the pet store comparing them to my own hand. The sales people thought I was nuts but I wasn't about to go home with the wrong darn sized rat and have to drive back to exchange it LOL.

Btw....live prey in the store is smaller than it appears. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by starmom

Yeah, I agree :gj: I always forget that there is a huge difference in gram weight with each of these rodent categories and I was sloppy to not give the gram weight along with the category name. My bad!! :bow: :D

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That's okay hon. I just know from raising my own rats that for the inexperienced keeper there can be a big difference in what they get if all they ask for is a "rat pup". Heck I've sent folks off to buy a pup of a certain size and what the darn store sold them was a dinky little pinky rat. I figure if they know how the rats grow, then it's maybe easier to get the right size for their snake from the get go. :) It's not like most of these chain pet stores have a clue how to advise a new snake owner on how to properly size prey.

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Originally Posted by teebyrd393

ok...Ill try it tonight! thanks!

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I would hold off till she has shed...unless I missed something...Good Luck! :D

-Josh :gj:

Frankykeno, I'm not going to quote your entire post because it's just entirely too long just to say THANK YOU for that outstanding clarification. I found it to be very informative and helpful.

If there isn't a sticky like this already, I think there should be. What a helpful reply you gave! THANK YOU!!!

You're very welcome dear. I'm actually planning on doing a proper pictorial soon on rats to help people be able to better judge feeder sizes and understand their life cycle as it relates to snake feeding. I'm want to follow one litter from the moment of their birth through to weaning with proper pictures, measurements, weights, etc.

I'll likely be bugging Deb (GA) to do the same with her mice since she has a very nice breeder/feeder group of them. :)

You can always for now add this to your BPNet favorites list by clicking the link for that at the top of this thread.

thanks y'all. I woke up to a perfectly shedded baby!