New Spider Line - hypothetical Q's

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

I think that's a rather strange perspective personally. I consider different colors, patterns, and in some cases, behaviors, a trait. Spinning seems to be some defect in fundamental motor skills. How is that a trait? The words themselves have different connotations. "Trait" indicates something desirable. I sincerely doubt anyone wants a clutch of really bad spinners.

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TRAIT
2 a: a distinguishing quality (as of personal character) <i.e curiosity is one of her notable traits> b: an inherited characteristic

so by definition spinning is a trait maybe not a desirable one but a trait none the less. To me defect would tend to lean toward something that inhibits the animals ability to exist and function completely. Spinners: Eat, Drink, Grow, Shed, Slither, Tongue flick, Breed ect.
Since we do not yet know whether it is neurologically related, muscularity related or a combination of the break down in commutation between the brain and the muscles, or simply an equilibrium issue, to label it as a birth defect would be jumping the gun some what.

As for what a non spinner would do to the market I doubt it would have much effect as spinning as become excepted by most.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Hey Wolf, can't help but notice, but why do you have such a cynical view on those breeding spiders? You're making a lot of assumptions and generalizations that could offend a lot of breeders,

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Only if it's not true. Do you disagree with what I said? I have a cynical view of human beings in general, not of people breeding spiders specifically. Humans have a remarkable ability to convince themselves of things that are in their favor.

Yes, I do have a spider. He has a minor tremor, but doesn't spin or headroll. Yes, I am planning on breeding him next year. He's het for chocolate hypo, and I'll be breeding him back to his dam, whom I also own, to see if I can get some chocolate hypo spiders.

What if, say lessers all had only one eye. They would still eat, shed, grow and breed, but wouldn't that still be considered a defect? Not to start an argument, but just because the wobble head is becoming accepted, I still see it as a flaw. I would personally start over with the new hypothetical line so I wouldn't have to worry about the flaw being incorporated into my offspring for generations. I doubt a new line without the wobble head effect will ever be discovered anyway.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Only if it's not true. Do you disagree with what I said? I have a cynical view of human beings in general, not of people breeding spiders specifically. Humans have a remarkable ability to convince themselves of things that are in their favor.

Yes, I do have a spider. He has a minor tremor, but doesn't spin or headroll. Yes, I am planning on breeding him next year. He's het for chocolate hypo, and I'll be breeding him back to his dam, whom I also own, to see if I can get some chocolate hypo spiders.

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I do disagree with that you said. How do you know what everyone producing and selling spiders is doing or breeding? I'm not trying to pick on you, but your comments are bordering on the absurd. I'm sorry that you have a cynical view of human being in general, but that doesn't give you the right to go and say that everyone is out to produce and sell tweaked spiders...

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I would personally start over with the new hypothetical line so I wouldn't have to worry about the flaw being incorporated into my offspring for generations. I doubt a new line without the wobble head effect will ever be discovered anyway.

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I was searching around some of the older threads, but couldn't find a post that Mendal's Balls made relating to this. It requires a somewhat advanced understanding of genetics, but in a nutshell, what he said is that genes are located on a string and passed on in that way. Think of it like a package deal. If the spider gene lands, then so does of bunch of other genetic information, including the gene or genes that cause spinning in spiders. Some normals exhibit signs of spinning as well, so you can't say that spinning is exclusive to spiders either.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I was searching around some of the older threads, but couldn't find a post that Mendal's Balls made relating to this. It requires a somewhat advanced understanding of genetics, but in a nutshell, what he said is that genes are located on a string and passed on in that way. Think of it like a package deal. If the spider gene lands, then so does of bunch of other genetic information, including the gene or genes that cause spinning in spiders. Some normals exhibit signs of spinning as well, so you can't say that spinning is exclusive to spiders either.

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I understand all this. That's why I don't think this new hypothetical wobble-free spider will ever be found. I think that there will probably be new spider lines in the years to come, but I agree that it will probably also have the wobble gene. And I've heard of normals with the wobble, too. Do you think people are quicker to pull these from breeding projects, being that they are normal and not an expensive morph?

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I think that there will probably be new spider lines in the years to come, but I agree that it will probably also have the wobble gene.

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There has only ever been one spider line, produced from the original WC spider male. At least that's all I've found so far, if I'm incorrect please someone correct me.

Spiderballs are kind of like Pug nosed dogs. Pugs are noted for having problems breathing. Some are huffing and puffing all the time, some are barely noticable, but all other things being equal, none of them breath as easily as their long nosed brethren. (I've never seen a pug nosed racing dog, have you?) Some people won't buy pugs for this reason and others overlook it because they love their cute little pushed in faces. It's just something that comes with the territory. If you don't want a dog that tends to have breathing problems, don't buy a pug... If the idea of a wobbly headed snake freaks you out, don't buy a spider. Thousands of other people are enjoying theirs though, wobbles and all, so why make a big deal out of it?


Mark

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

TRAIT
2 a: a distinguishing quality (as of personal character) <i.e curiosity is one of her notable traits> b: an inherited characteristic

so by definition spinning is a trait maybe not a desirable one but a trait none the less.

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Sorry, but "a distinguishing quality" has a VERY positive connotation. Defect does not... that to me makes it clear that spinning is a defect, not a quality.

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To me defect would tend to lean toward something that inhibits the animals ability to exist and function completely. Spinners: Eat, Drink, Grow, Shed, Slither, Tongue flick, Breed ect.

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DEFECT
a shortcoming, fault, or imperfection

While defects can have degrees certainly, I think it would be relatively easy to qualify seemingly uncontrollable movement as a defect.

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Since we do not yet know whether it is neurologically related, muscularity related or a combination of the break down in commutation between the brain and the muscles, or simply an equilibrium issue, to label it as a birth defect would be jumping the gun some what.

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We can say effects 100% of all animals with a specific allele. It's clearly a genetic defect, working in combination with some other genes (which are responsible for the degree of spinning). How can you call it anything BUT a genetic defect? We can tie it to one gene 100% of the time.

Now whether that genetic defect is neurological or not is certainly up for debate. But, by definition, it qualifies as a genetic defect.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Some normals exhibit signs of spinning as well, so you can't say that spinning is exclusive to spiders either.

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That's certainly true. This defect seems to be activated by the Spider allele all of the time, but it can also become active without it, although that's far more rare.

But it's a good topic none the less. As someone else mentioned, Spiders with virtually no spinning can throw ultra-spinning offspring and vice versa. How much of it is environmental is up for debate. I think this says it all:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

If the idea of a wobbly headed snake freaks you out, don't buy a spider.

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At the end of the day, Spiders will be spinners. So if you aren't comfortable with that, best to avoid them.

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Originally Posted by Holbeird

There has only ever been one spider line, produced from the original WC spider male. At least that's all I've found so far, if I'm incorrect please someone correct me.

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I know that there is currently only one spider line that came from an imported male, I was just saying that I assume more wild spiders will be found in the years to come. Every base morph began with a single line, but eventually some of them end up being found again, starting a new line. I would guess that another wild spider will be found one day.