Super Spider??

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

There were a few on kingsnake a while back, and a couple other boards as well. I'll post them up on the main thread if I can find them.

To me, one or two clutches doesn't prove anything...all I meant was there was a suggestion of it. I just know that there's been a few outspoken people online that keep bringing up talk of "fatal" genes and secrecy...I don't think that's right.

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If you can find them, that would be great. I have not discounted the "fatal" theory, as I believe it is quite possible. However, the lack of data on spider x spider breeding is why I haven't made a conclusive decision as of yet. I plan on doing a Spider to Spider breeding next year, so I can see the reults with my own eyes.

As for the threads I have seen about all Spiders in a clutch, I always recall seeing a Normal produced from those animals at some time in the future.

Well, I didn't (and never did) say anything about "secrets" or "conspiracies." I just state the possibilities as I understand them. If I ever see/hear compelling evidence of healthy, thriving homozygous spiders, I'll happily point it out to anyone who will listen. And I don't state these possibilities in any way that could be seen as some sort of scare-tactic or warning against trying to produce them. If anyone thinks I have, point it out to me and I'll correct my wording.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I haven't seen/heard/read any data of spider to spider clutches out there having a higher instance of eggs going bad to suggest that there is a "deadly" homozygous form of the spider gene. I don't think its necessarily a good thing to suggest that on a message board to new keepers with nothing, even some sliver of evidence, for that to be true.

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While I completely agree with where your going, I do think there may be something to what Judy had to say. It is possible, in theory, that the genetic "spinner" defect, when homozygous could prevent a viable egg from forming. However, I have no scientific data to support this, it is something that could be a possible effect in spider x spider crosses.

I also meant to add, that since Spider x Spider breedings are for the most part, rare, then the chance of someone having a Homozygous Spider is also rare. For anyone to have a Homozygous Spider, they would have to know that their Spider at least was a product of a Spider x Spider breeding, for it to even have a chance. All of that is also based on the fact that the Spider gene is a true Dominant mutation, with the Heterozygous form looking identical to the Homozygous form.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

If you can find them, that would be great. I have not discounted the "fatal" theory, as I believe it is quite possible. However, the lack of data on spider x spider breeding is why I haven't made a conclusive decision as of yet. I plan on doing a Spider to Spider breeding next year, so I can see the reults with my own eyes.

As for the threads I have seen about all Spiders in a clutch, I always recall seeing a Normal produced from those animals at some time in the future.

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Just did a quick search on this forum and found one of the "breeders" producing these was none of other than Eddie C himself...he claimed he "bred" a spider x normal and got 7 out of 7 spiders and said he'd update after the next round of breeding to another female. Knowing what we know now, there's no credibility there anymore, if there ever was....

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...der+homozygous

That's cool that you'll try to figure it out for yourself, I guess time will tell.

I've just gotten back into herps after a hiatus, and super spiders are actually one of my primary goals, working with ball python morphs.

No, they won't look any different from normal spiders...but if I can verify a male/female pair of them, I can consistantly produce spiders that will always throw 100% spider offspring. I can see a LOT of uses for that in breeding projects.

The best means I can think of is simply to breed spider to spider, hold back all of the offspring, and then start proving them out...I think if I get 3 or more clutches of all spiders, and no normals from an animal, I can call it a super spider with reasonable certainty. One of the reasons I'm interested in doing it is because no one else really is (at least not openly).

It's going to be difficult, but hopefully rewarding, to produce 'super spider' combinations with other morphs. A super killer-bee, for example--producing a super pastel is easy, you know exactly which animal it is from the moment of hatching. Every single time you outcross a super-spider (say, to a killer bee), you will have to prove out the offspring the hard way all over again.

I see no reason to think it's not possible. With a 6 year wait to reasonably prove that a female hatchling is a super-spider, it's not suprising most people don't think it's worth spending so much effort on. (Statistically, a spider bred to a spider will produce 4 or 5 spiders out of a clutch of 6, but if both were bred to normals you would get 3 from each clutch of 6--so you miss out on at least one or more spider offspring by breeding 2 spiders together).

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

While I completely agree with where your going, I do think there may be something to what Judy had to say. It is possible, in theory, that the genetic "spinner" defect, when homozygous could prevent a viable egg from forming. However, I have no scientific data to support this, it is something that could be a possible effect in spider x spider crosses.

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I hear you, I suppose then it is just an uncertain to say that homozygous spiders could exist as well. I think the only breeder who has worked with them enough to have a truely valid opinion on the whole deal would be Kevin from NERD. And even then, like Tim said, how many Spider x Spider crosses are really being done anyway?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

No, they won't look any different from normal spiders...but

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Where did you get the evidence to support that claim?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

(Statistically, a spider bred to a spider will produce 4 or 5 spiders out of a clutch of 6, but if both were bred to normals you would get 3 from each clutch of 6--so you miss out on at least one or more spider offspring by breeding 2 spiders together).

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While close, this statement is not necessarily accurate... in a spider x spider crossing, you'd have a 75% chance of each EGG being a spider, with 33% of those (25% of the total clutch) potentially being homozygous for the trait. That doesn't mean that 75% of your eggs will be a spider, though. You still have to hit your odds, and while your odds are better that is in no way a guarantee that you'll be happy with the results.

with the killer bee combo, who cares about super spiders?:D



vaughn