live or frozen mice?

Snakes aren't going to get parasites from their prey. Species specific. These myths have been spread around for quite some time.

These animals have lived for millions of years, much longer than we have, and they have evolved to be very efficient at killing and digesting their prey. How can you say that f/t is easier to digest? Is it a proven fact and have studies been done on this?

If frozen is more convenient for you, and your snakes will eat it, go for it. If live is more convenient for you, and your snakes eat it, then great. Neither is better or worse than the other, and if you get your feeders from a reputable source, be it live or f/t, you won't have problems. Ill-treated, poorly, emaciated frozen feeders are just as bad as ill-treated, poorly, emaciated live feeders. They affect the snake the same way.

I spend 45 cents each on medium live mice. The place I buy them from, their live prices are exactly the same as their frozen. If I bought frozen, I would be spending ALOT more getting them shipped than if I just spend $20 and drove to get them. (plus the dry ice to keep the frozen ones cold for the 2+ hour trip in Texas summer weather- $10).

Also, I want my snakes to feed as natural as possible for them. I'm not just going to lay a dead rodent in the bottom of the cage, so the snake can go up to it and open its mouth to eat. That is not what they do in the wild. With live, they are at least getting mental stimulation and physical exercise, which is good for their overall well-being. Mine don't get bit(unless it's Arith and she grabs the mouse by the tail and tries to drown it in the waterbowl... She's a doofus). Mice and small rats are really physically unable to do damage to a snake, their teeth and claws just aren't able to penetrate the hard keratinized skin. I worry more about frozen rodents, their claws are alot sharper(IME) and could possibly injure the throats or mouths of the snakes.

Just so I don't seem like a hypocrite, my boa eats f/t as well as live, 4-6 week old rabbits), the Sumatran Short Tail eats frozen small-medium rats, and the hognose eats live or frozen fuzzy/small hopper mice.

ALSO! Unless frozen feeders are vacuum sealed, they are not good past 6 months. So freezing them for that long for fear your snakes will contract some sort of dangerous parasite, will just get you freezer-burnt, nasty smelling feeders that will probably have to be thrown away. I know I don't want to eat odd-smelling, freezer-burnt chicken.

My snake will not eat frozen (at least the four times I initially tried it). He is eating live fuzzies, which I don't worry about hurting him due to their helplessness. But I want to switch him to hoppers soon and they seem much more capable of doing harm.

Any tips on humane ways to kill a rodent immediately before feeding? I've heard you can use a ruler to snap the neck, which sounds ok if you're precise, and also smacking the paper bag against the table which would be terrible if it took more than one try. Any other thoughts? I don't want to have the store perform the kill because it is far away and I don't want to give him something too cold.

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

My snake will not eat frozen (at least the four times I initially tried it). He is eating live fuzzies, which I don't worry about hurting him due to their helplessness. But I want to switch him to hoppers soon and they seem much more capable of doing harm.

Any tips on humane ways to kill a rodent immediately before feeding? I've heard you can use a ruler to snap the neck, which sounds ok if you're precise, and also smacking the paper bag against the table which would be terrible if it took more than one try. Any other thoughts? I don't want to have the store perform the kill because it is far away and I don't want to give him something too cold.

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CO2 Chamber which will cost you about 50$ to make, counting how many years you will use it for it is not that expensive http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

That's a fantastic idea.

i prefer my mice alive when i eat them

i feed live... i hate to watch the kill. i drop the mouse in, monitor everything, when the snake strikes (which is usually successful) etc i then cover the tub, i do enjoy watching them swallow the prey though.

one of my snake had been bitten before. it was a very small nick, i probably would've never caught it...it was just right place, right time. put some neosporin on it, although it most likely would've healed just fine without it.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Snakes aren't going to get parasites from their prey. Species specific. These myths have been spread around for quite some time.

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By people like Roger Klingenberg ("Understanding Reptile Parasites")
Do a websearch on "indirect lifecycle parasites". Read up.
Parasites can be very complex creatures with very intricate lifecycles. Why DO you think people get malaria from mosquitos? It surprises me that people actually believe that parasites can't be spread from one species to another, when minimal reading will show that many parasites rely on multiple species to complete their lifecycle, and cannot complete it without all of them. Of course, rodents do carry parasites which can use reptiles as hosts. A rodent is a very good intermediate host for a reptile parasite, as it is likely to be eaten by the parasite's primary host.
Here's a quick reference for those who don't have time to do the searches:
http://www.nhc.ed.ac.uk/index.php?page=24.25.333.374
As you can see from the phrase "Rodents usually serve as intermediate hosts for snake pentastomes", live rodent prey actually does represent a risk of transmission of reptile parasites to your snakes. The pentastomes are, of course, far from the only ones.

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These animals have lived for millions of years, much longer than we have, and they have evolved to be very efficient at killing and digesting their prey. How can you say that f/t is easier to digest? Is it a proven fact and have studies been done on this?

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Actually, I said that they may be easier to digest. The reason is merely logical--freezing breaks cell walls.

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If frozen is more convenient for you, and your snakes will eat it, go for it. If live is more convenient for you, and your snakes eat it, then great. Neither is better or worse than the other, and if you get your feeders from a reputable source, be it live or f/t, you won't have problems. Ill-treated, poorly, emaciated frozen feeders are just as bad as ill-treated, poorly, emaciated live feeders. They affect the snake the same way.

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With somewhat less of a risk of parasite transmission after they have been frozen for 6 weeks. I have to say that I disagree with the idea that neither is better for the snake. All else being equal, f/t is without any doubt safer for the snake.

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I spend 45 cents each on medium live mice. The place I buy them from, their live prices are exactly the same as their frozen. If I bought frozen, I would be spending ALOT more getting them shipped than if I just spend $20 and drove to get them. (plus the dry ice to keep the frozen ones cold for the 2+ hour trip in Texas summer weather- $10).

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You're quite lucky, as live mice here cost $2.29 each. I imagine few people are fortunate enough to live close enough to a breeder to pick up live mice regularly at that price. I don't think I would be willing to drive for 2 hours to pick up live mice every week. I would prefer to have a year's worth of them shipped to me frozen for considerably less money. Unless you are housing the mice for extended periods before you feed them off, in which case you might as well just raise your own--same issues. As I said, I'm raising my own, but intend to convert all of my snakes to eating f/t, because there are simply far fewer problems (in all respects) that way. You always have plenty of the right-sized prey on hand when you need it.

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Also, I want my snakes to feed as natural as possible for them. I'm not just going to lay a dead rodent in the bottom of the cage, so the snake can go up to it and open its mouth to eat. That is not what they do in the wild. With live, they are at least getting mental stimulation and physical exercise, which is good for their overall well-being. Mine don't get bit(unless it's Arith and she grabs the mouse by the tail and tries to drown it in the waterbowl... She's a doofus). Mice and small rats are really physically unable to do damage to a snake, their teeth and claws just aren't able to penetrate the hard keratinized skin. I worry more about frozen rodents, their claws are alot sharper(IME) and could possibly injure the throats or mouths of the snakes.

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Don't make me break out the pictures of snakes that have been injured or killed by rodents. Of course there isn't anything natural about the environment snakes are in while they are captive--the lack of space to move freely is one of the primary issues that can lead to snakes being injured by live rodent prey. I have never heard of a snake being injured by the teeth or claws of an f/t rodent (apart from force-feeding stories), but I have heard MANY stories of snakes being injured by live rodents, and have seen snakes bitten in person. Usually these are minor bites--but even a small wound can provide an entry for infection, and if it's avoidable, why take the risk? I have also yet to encounter a snake that does not strike and constrict f/t prey just as vigorously as live prey. I've heard of it, but haven't seen it yet. As for the wild....wild snakes have been observed and documented eating carrion when they find it.

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ALSO! Unless frozen feeders are vacuum sealed, they are not good past 6 months. So freezing them for that long for fear your snakes will contract some sort of dangerous parasite, will just get you freezer-burnt, nasty smelling feeders that will probably have to be thrown away. I know I don't want to eat odd-smelling, freezer-burnt chicken.

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My bad--I misremembered. It is 3 to 6 WEEKS to kill most parasites, not months. Of course you can keep vacuum packed mice for a year, and mice in ordinary heavy bags for up to 6 months.
Of course, some snakes simply refuse to eat f/t, though the majority can eventually be convinced to do so with a lot of perseverence and time. I have nothing against feeding live rodents when a snake will not accept anything else. My point is just that it's a riskier choice when there IS a choice.
And whether you feed live or f/t you should have a fecal check done on your snakes once a year--because a few parasites can survive freezing. While that risk can be reduced, it can't be eliminated completely, so testing is important.

wow that must have took a lot of time responding to all those people ha ha

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Don't make me break out the pictures of snakes that have been injured or killed by rodents.

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With all due respect, most of the pictures of snakes injured or killed by rodents (especially the one of the ball python that is literally in pieces) are due to a keeper putting a live prey in with their snake overnight and even days on end without providing food or water for the rodent. The snake then becomes the prey.

If one feeds appropriately sized mice or rats (again, even my 3000+ gram female only gets one 4-6 week old rat a week), the risk of injury is minimal at best and horror stories of injuries are generally anecdotal. As I stated above, I've fed over 2000 live prey with nary a scratch on any of my snakes. Adam has reported feeding live for 10+ years to a collection of over 300 (probably over 500 now) with no injuries to his animals.

You may find this thread an interesting read: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=24079

With that said, we advocate that each keeper decide which method works best for them.

You're welcome to advocate that, but I'll continue to disagree that feeding live is safe. My big female was just bitten by a rat, to prove it's not. She refused f/t, so I had to offer what she was used to, to get her feeding (I just acquired her last week).

Now I'm treating a wound because of it. I dislike having to feed live, because the snake inevitably eventually grabs the rodent the wrong way, and gets bitten. I don't want my snakes to be bitten if there is any possible way to avoid it. I could feed them tiny rat pups all the time, but I don't think that's an ideal food item for a large snake. Adult rats have fully developed skeletons, which pups do not. A fully developed skeleton means more calcium for the snake.

The next time they get fed, they'll receive stunned rats--and after that, pre-killed...then on to f/t if all goes well.

I'm sure everyone has their own beliefs about this issue, and I'm not going to tell people they're bad for feeding live, but I AM going to explain why I believe what I do about the issue, and let them make up their own mind.