How can a cage be too big???

Ok without touting what anyone has said here the down low on how a cage can be to big for the animal. Ok a ball python is an animal with limited resources when it comes to defense, it bites, it balls up, it hisses, or it flees. Now in the mind of your animal moving from one hide to the next is a daunting task. Why you might ask well to it when its out of its hide its visible to predators. So the longer it spend out of its hide more more its mind its telling to to get the hell somewhere that it is safe. So if you increase the space in between the hides your snake spends more time mentally freaking out thinking its going to get eaten A.K.A stressing out. So with some animals or over time with others they will start showing signs of stress caused by enviroment , not eating, not thermo regulating and so on.

Your not suggesting anything new however years of keeping and even longer of them being in captivity have show that large tanks are not only unnecessary but in the end hard on their well being. Ball Pythons neither need or want large open spaces to provide it for them is a wast of time and money.

Them roaming at night is not a sign of "restless" behavior it is simply them being curious about their close surrounds. To say that the tank looks small for them is our assessment of what we think they might need. But in truth they really need less to be happy than most are comfortable providing. I mean balls need, Heat, Water, food, and a close hide and thats it.

Hope I answered some questions for you guys.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Honestly I think it's ridiculous to say they like small cages.

Would you like living in your bathroom for the rest of your life?

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And how many do you own and for how long???

Please don't misunderstand different animal have different requirements those just happen to be a Ball pythons.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rabernet again.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Honestly I think it's ridiculous to say they like small cages.

Would you like living in your bathroom for the rest of your life?

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Do you constrict and kill your own food and eat it?
Comparing your needs to a ball pythons needs just isn't real logical. People do it all the time the analyze animals with human behaviors. Ball pythons are extremely private snakes unlike boas and other constrictors. They enjoy tight secure hiding spots. the tubs most breeders use are long for a snake to move around but not real tall so the animal feels secure. Stressed BP's don't eat well and tend to get RI's and other illness. Stress weakens their imune system. You can't see a snake stressed because the don't show it like we do. Part of their defense/camoflauge is to remain still and motionless so just cuz he is still doesn't mean he is not stressed. Not all snakes are this sensitive but when you've kept 40+ snakes for years you see what works best overall and time and time again. Stress free snakes eat more consistently, don't get sick and breed better and more predictable. Thats why we prefer smaller enclosures for BP's, now boas or larger pythons are different and prefer more room.

I say put them in whatever you want as long as you have the hides. I have a 65gal tank for my female and she seems fine regular eater and likes to roam around in ti i have 4 hides though one on either side then 2 that i have kind of staggard in the middle. the only porblem is getting humidity right. its a pain. other than that i dont see a prob. Actually reading other posts I did forget about the cleaning part im am soo used to it i didnt even mention it thats also a big pain but if you are up for the responsibility of it then do it. I respect everyone on this site for all the knowlege that they have used to help me out many time. But this is one thing where i differ in opinion. I have lots of stuff in my tank to clutter it up, like plants half logs rocks things of this sort so its not just some huge wide open space. I think this is why i have been sucessful with my transition. my male is in a 20gal long though he much more shy.

Well I would say you can't argue with a decrease in feeding. But... One thing I have picked up from my time here is that the level of what I like to call "BP paranoia" varies drastically from snake to snake. My personal experience with my ONE snake has been that almost everything that people say "don't do X or you'll stress him out" barely applies.

* I gave him only a 2 day break when I got him.
* I feed in a tub under bright light while watching him. Any time of day, coming and going, friends over, music playing, you name it - he eats like a machine.
* I pick him up right after eating to put him back in his cage. No regurg.
* I handle him once or twice a day. He doesn't always like it but he doesn't get pissy. He's never hissed or bitten.

Of course, that's just one snake and I as I read more and more posts I noticed that peoples experiences varied. Some were more conservative and some carry their snakes around with them all the time! I eventually concluded that there must be this huge personality factor with each snake.

I like the "try it and see approach" the best. It really is giving the snake a chance to choose and either way its going to get what's best for it! If they like it small great. But, I would hate to enclose my pet in 1/2 or 1/4 the space they could actually enjoy (as long as its practical of course).

But, there is no way I want to deal with a monster glass aquarium so I'm definately interested in some sort of plastic or mostly wooden enclosure. Soembody, tell me more!

It does make sense that if a ball python feels too "out in the open" it might get stressed. Though I've had my girl in a 40 gallon breeder for quite some time and last night she just took a f/t rat out of my hand, no worries about fasting here :P But I imagine different snakes have different preferences and temperments. I have a very young bp I currently have in a small plastic sweater box and it's fine for him so far, but since I only have two and they're pets, I want to end up having a nice looking cage for him as an adult. Not too big but enough he can at least stretch out.

Yeah a lot of us do push human traits onto our animals, it's only natural that since we provide them food and safety we are concerned with their living quarters as well, and it's tough for us to imagine an animal preferring a smaller cage, especially since so many other sorts of animals think of nothing except escape. It's impossible to pry inside the mind of a snake and see if certain living conditions make them happier or if they just don't care at all. All we have to go on are outside indicators such as illness. But I have a lot of respect for the breeders that have been at this a long time... some day when I've got the time and money I'd love to get more into bps. I've got quite a bit more learning and dreaming to do though.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* I feed in a tub under bright light while watching him. Any time of day, coming and going, friends over, music playing, you name it - he eats like a machine.

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It doesn't surprise me that a growing baby would eat like a machine. I would be interested in hearing your observations on his eating patterns this coming winter when he's over a year old. I suspect you'll start to observe less reliable feeding responses that you are currently used to.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* * I pick him up right after eating to put him back in his cage. No regurg.

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If you are very careful, the amount of time taken to transport from feeding tub to enclosure doesn't stress them out enough to regurg. That's not the same as a regular handling session. I've had overturned waterbowls on feeding day that several hours later, I'll handle the snake very briefly in order to clean up his/her enclosure.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* I handle him once or twice a day. He doesn't always like it but he doesn't get pissy. He's never hissed or bitten.

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Some snakes are very laid back and won't hiss or bite. But they also tend to just tolerate handling. I believe you've made the observation in another thread that you can tell when he's had enough of a handling session, if I remember correctly.

I can only tell you from my personal experience with my first ball python. He was housed in a 20 gallon long - fed reliably for me, has ALWAYS been a very easy going snake, but once his first winter came - I had an 8 month fast, until I finally broke down and got him into an appropriately sized tub, and he broke his fast. He has eaten reliably through winter season ever since.

Once I gave up the idea of a "display" enclosure (after all, if I want to look at him, I take him out of his tub) and made the switch to tubs, I've never looked back. Glass works for some people, but glass will only be used for rats and geckos in my house. I've seen the difference in a snake kept in an enclosure that was too large for him and too exposed, even at just 20 gallons vs. the same snake kept in a tub.

I've seen the difference in how aggressively my snakes feed when housed in smaller enclosures vs. larger ones because I wanted to give them more room. I learned that the more experienced keepers really did know what they were talking about. ;)

I can sit here and go through our collection of 18 ball pythons, pick out a few habits here or there and then say "well this is what works" but that wouldn't be a fair assessment of what generally works for the majority of ball pythons. When we give advice here we are usually working on general husbandry habits that have been proven effective over hundred, perhaps thousands of ball pythons and over many cumulative years of keeping. Not what works for one person with one snake in one experience.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I can sit here and go through our collection of 18 ball pythons, pick out a few habits here or there and then say "well this is what works" but that wouldn't be a fair assessment of what generally works for the majority of ball pythons. When we give advice here we are usually working on general husbandry habits that have been proven effective over hundred, perhaps thousands of ball pythons and over many cumulative years of keeping. Not what works for one person with one snake in one experience.

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Bingo!!!!