teaching bps

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Anthropomorphism is how we as humans associate with the world around us. The idea of a creature without the ability to express its wants and needs is alien to us and as such we cope with this by transmitting our ingrain behaviors on those things without them in order to better identify with that thing.

In short you ball tolerates your handling and lacks the higher brain function to make the decisions needed to be trained. However it is a novel concept and if I could I teach each of mine to form a different letter of the alphabet so I could write messages in pythons :D

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People are also completely full of themselves and tend to assume that anything they can't communicate with is stupid. Personally, I believe all of the "they are animals so they lack the ability to [INSERT HUMAN BEHAVIOR HERE]." is bogus. We are all built on the same stuff. In fact, our brains have what's called the "reptilian brain" and on top of that is a layer of top-notch reasoning ability. This is why we're just never ...quite... civilized. We are not something new, we are animals with the best hardware around.

There is a gorilla than can understand spoken english and, very coherently, carry on a conversation using sign language to reply.

That being said, I have to agree that training the python is a far bet. On the other hand, I disagree that saying a snake "naturally undulates" when its belly is scratched is grounds for saying it doesn't like it. In fact, saything that it doesn't like it is completely contrary to the whole anthropomorhism argument.

I mean what if I was to squeeze a BP's tail with a pair of pliers causing (I assume) some violent reaction? Would you be prepared to say that I'm anthropomorphising when I say that it looks like he doesn't like it? I don't think so.

So, yes, snakes aren't all that smart and, yes, they generally want to hide away and play it safe. But, I don't think its right to crap all over this person's enjoyment and bonding with his pet. I don't think its right and I don't think its necessarily accurate either.

Actually, I know a guy who trained snakes to come when called.

Now, before you call bs...

He was a co-worker who had previously worked at an aquarium that kept 5 watersnakes (one of the North American species, but I don't know which) in a large naturalistic enclosure. He always blew a whistle before feeding, and always fed at the same time. Eventually, the snakes would hear the whistle and recognize that as a signal that prey were available. He described seeing five heads emerging from the ground cover as the snakes responded to the sound. Somewhere he has a paper published on it...sorry, I can't remember the name or location.

Whether this would work on balls, I cannot say. I do know that mine are very aware of when feeding time is, and could perhaps be taught to associate a sound (or vibration) cue with feeding time...it wouldn't be coming when called as understand it when I say my dog comes when he's called though.

Let the snake be a snake,it is incable of learning tricks like a dog, cat or rat if you want somthing that can do tricks or learn to do them by one of those type animals.Ohterwise just enjoy your snake for what it is.

When I'm lying on the bed and my BP goes down by my feet, about half of the time if I tap his back side he will turn around and come back.

He spends alot of time watching me from his hide, his tank faces my side of the bed. Many times when I'm holding him, he will rest his head on my hand and stare at me. Many times when I go to bed if he is out of his hide and sees me, he will go the the front of the tank and stare at me and go up to the top trying to get out.

If he doesn't want human contact what does he want?? Food?? I'm sure he must associate me with food.

Anyone know a good snake psychologist (or maybe a human one!!)??

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Originally Posted by bearhart

That being said, I have to agree that training the python is a far bet. On the other hand, I disagree that saying a snake "naturally undulates" when its belly is scratched is grounds for saying it doesn't like it. In fact, saying that it doesn't like it is completely contrary to the whole anthropomorphism argument.

I mean what if I was to squeeze a BP's tail with a pair of pliers causing (I assume) some violent reaction? Would you be prepared to say that I'm anthropomorphising when I say that it looks like he doesn't like it? I don't think so.

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Your right to say that a snake undulating when its belly is touched is because it doesn't like it is again applying human traits to an animal that lacks this trait. It would be more accurate to say that physical contact on a vulnerable area of this animal induces a response of withdrawal from said contact in an attempt to lessen the risk of injury to the animal. On some level there are some reactions that we as humans associate with emotion "fear" is classified as an emotion in the human world. However fear is not what I would consider and emotion like love, envy, hate and so on. Fear is your primitive brain telling your body to change your location or physical association with something because your body is in danger or rick of getting injured. Because of our higher brain functions we can learn to suppress this reaction. But you take an animal that has been handled for years and is puppy dog safe and tap is head and it will recoil or you snatch up it hide with no warning and you might get bit. Snakes lack the higher brain functions to suppress the fight or flight response.

And about squeezing it tail. Inducing a response based on pain or any other injury doesn't mean it doesn't like it you have produced a response based pain not an emotional choice.

For us to say our snakes like something would mean giving them the choice of non-life-sustaining choices. This would eliminate warm versus cold places, prey items (imprint feeders) and so on. It would mean they prefer people with brown hair, or that ware red shirts. To like something to me means that the animals if given the options of non life sustaining choices it would choose the same every time.

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So, yes, snakes aren't all that smart and, yes, they generally want to hide away and play it safe. But, I don't think its right to crap all over this person's enjoyment and bonding with his pet. I don't think its right and I don't think its necessarily accurate either.

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No one is crapping on their enjoyment. We just want them to understand that the type of responses you get out of dogs and cats can't be applied to reptiles.

I see them as pure, living instinct. If they react violently or defensively, it's for their own protection. If they seem to be content, then obviously their needs are being met to satisfaction. Their needs are simple, food and water, suitable shelter, sense of security, the drive to reproduce. Why would a snake in captivity seek anything it doesn't in nature? Snakes don't have family structures. They reproduce and go on with their lives without the need for social interaction. Dogs form packs and have social hierarchies; clearly they seek this same structure in captivity. It's a very human characteristic, wanting our feelings to imprint on animals, and I think when these arguments come up, people get defensive because they feel that this is seen as a negative quality about their pet. It's not negative, it's just different. It's something we will never fully understand because we are people, not snakes. But I respect this instinctual aspect in reptiles, and I think that's the beauty of them.

my bp's like to poo in their tubs!!!

While I think snakes are generally smarter than most people think, most are not trainable in the sense of a dog or other mammal. I do believe they can be condition trained. That's quite evident. They get conditioned to handling and feeding schedules.

That's not to say that no snake could ever be trained do a "trick". I have heard some interesting stories about Indigo snakes.

But even in these cases I do not believe any snake is capable of what you'd call a real emotion such as love.

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So, yes, snakes aren't all that smart and, yes, they generally want to hide away and play it safe. But, I don't think its right to crap all over this person's enjoyment and bonding with his pet. I don't think its right and I don't think its necessarily accurate either.

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Where did you get we were "crapping all over" anyone? I'm extremely bonded to our snake collection and enjoy them thoroughly but I do so understanding that it's mostly a one sided experience. For me, personally, I don't use my own human emotions to judge a snake's response or read anything in to it based on my human standards.

I don't see that my standards are anything that important really. I'm human, they are snakes. They are perfectly designed to be what they are so I don't see the need for me to hold them to any standard that would be totally foreign to their experience. I just respect that they are what they are and leave it at that.

Sort of like the feeding deal. People get very emotional about live feeding. I never have. Not that I don't care very much for the wellbeing of the rats I raise to be fed off but I don't intrude my feelings into their predator/prey dynamic. I see it I guess as having no place there at least to my mind. I'm just a part of it, not really all that important a part really. As long as the rats are well raised and the snake well able to handle the living prey item....well I'm just the chick that moves part A into the vicinity of part B and let's nature take it's course. :)

I strive to make sure the snakes are well cared for as well as their prey, I completely enjoy the gift of handling and the sense of accomplishment when everyone's eating and shedding and poop and the rats are popping out future feeders in a healthy manner. Those are my emotions and there they remain. I'm sure the rats and the snakes are quite fine with that. :)

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Originally Posted by bearhart

In fact, our brains have what's called the "reptilian brain" and on top of that is a layer of top-notch reasoning ability.

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I don't know where you are getting your medical information, but the "reptilian brain" is the term that refers to the area of our brains that include the Cerebellum, Medula, Midbrain, Pons, and Brain Stem. This is the area of the brain which controls involuntary body processes and reaction to stimulus.

The area of higher-order reason that you are talking about is contained in the frontal lobes of our brain - reptiles lack this area of the brain and the subsequent reasoning and logic skills that it provides.