Poor Python died... looking for a reason

There's a local expo here I frequent and the hardcore BP breeder keeps his balls at 88 F all the time (warm side) when not breeding. I'm pretty sure the temperature wasn't the problem.

Sorry to hear about your loss. Let us know what the vet says.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

There's a local expo here I frequent and the hardcore BP breeder keeps his balls at 88 F all the time (warm side) when not breeding. I'm pretty sure the temperature wasn't the problem.

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Well, that's a good theory, but the original poster said ...

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Originally Posted by HellPenguin

A lamp heated one side up to a balmy 85 degrees (give or take) and the other side was kept cooler.

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Now, I'm certainly no "hardcore BP breeder" (I consider myself more more "NC-17") but regardless, I have enough experience with ball pythons and different types of setups to know that a 30 gallon glass tank heated to 85 on one side could easily get into the low 70's on the cool side in many american households in the middle of winter ... Without knowing exactly how low of temps the snake was exposed to and for how long, there's really no way that anyone could responsibly claim that "temperature wasn't the problem".

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, that's a good theory, but the original poster said ...



Now, I'm certainly no "hardcore BP breeder" (I consider myself more more "NC-17") but regardless, I have enough experience with ball pythons and different types of setups to know that a 30 gallon glass tank heated to 85 on one side could easily get into the low 70's on the cool side in many american households in the middle of winter ... Without knowing exactly how low of temps the snake was exposed to and for how long, there's really no way that anyone could responsibly claim that "temperature wasn't the problem".

-adam

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That's true. With the tank size in mind along with other things you've stated - you're probably right.

And I'll admit that I'm only PG "owner" so don't be offended by my assumptions (note, I said probably). But every single owner slash breeder I've asked (half a dozen or so) has claimed that this site's 92-94 warm side is too hot.

I've also noticed people on these forums keep them at even lower temps without them dying. Healthy, no, but alive nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

92-94 warm side is too hot.

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I've been keeping large numbers of ball pythons at those temps for decades ... my colony is thriving ... no, it's not.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I've also noticed people on these forums keep them at even lower temps without them dying. Healthy, no, but alive nonetheless.

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Ball pythons die very slowly from temps that are too low ... you could have temps that are too low one year that starts the seeds of a respiratory infection and the following year the animal will get sick and without proper medical attention die. I've been on this board a couple of years now and every winter without a doubt there are at least 2 posts a week about ball pythons with respiratory infections ... those infections are caused by temps that are too low ... respiratory infections, left untreated, will kill a ball python 100% dead ... not so sure what's so hard to understand about that? 82-84 on one side, 92-94 on the other is a good temp range that will keep a ball python happy and respiratory infection free. :D :sweeet:

-adam

Decades huh? Even when the old documentation, now obsolete, used to say that temps even in the high 60s low 70s were proper - you were going against the masses? From what I've read on this forum, the 92-94 is fairly new news.

I know the masses of this forum will disagree with my temps, but based on the in person advice I've gotten from successful breeders I'm sticking to it. If I'm out in left field about this, time will tell and I'd certainly post here about it for any other skeptics :)

I understand about the RI issue. To me, the original poster seemed the type that would notice something like that. I'm sure that some RIs may be less noticeable than others, so I'm sure it's very possible it could be the culprit.

Either way, this is a nightmare and I have the utmost sympathy for the poster.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Decades huh? Even when the old documentation, now obsolete, used to say that temps even in the high 60s low 70s were proper - you were going against the masses? From what I've read on this forum, the 92-94 is fairly new news.

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Yes, decades ... 27 years since I got my first ball python ... when I started there was no internet, no message boards, and no "documentation" ... I've learned what I know from trial and error and talking to the pioneers of this hobby/industry first hand.

When I visit with the top ball python breeders in the world and see them keeping thousands of ball pythons the exact same way I am keeping mine, or when I feed out 500+ rodents on a Monday morning and everyone eats, or when I pair up males and females for breeding season and 9 out of every 10 females lays eggs, I know that I must be doing something right.

I'm certainly not saying that there aren't other ways to keep ball pythons successfully, I'm just disagreeing with your "absolutes" ... 92-94 is not "too hot" and I can prove it ... I think that you might be a little short on experience to be giving such definitive advice.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

To me, the original poster seemed the type that would notice something like that.

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Not every RI exhibits itself with massive symptoms ... sometimes they can be very hard to miss and even the top breeders in the business lose animals to RI that they never knew were sick ... your assumptions about what may or may not be noticed are way off base.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I'm sure that some RIs may be less noticeable than others, so I'm sure it's very possible it could be the culprit.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I'm pretty sure the temperature wasn't the problem.

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So, which is it?

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Either way, this is a nightmare and I have the utmost sympathy for the poster.

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As do I.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

but based on the in person advice I've gotten from successful breeders I'm sticking to it.

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Name one of them Please!

I need to know who Not to buy from in the future..

When I said it was possible it could be the culprit, I was talking about an RI that would be unnoticeable in a routine examination, not a possible RI from a temp of 85 degrees.

And, again, I said that your point about the size of the tank (I have a 20 long compared with his 30) with the 85 on the warm + winter was a good one. This was after I stated my assumption about the temps not being the problem. I'm sure the cold side difference with a 20 vs 30 is pretty huge and I hadn't even thought of that.

I'll be sticking to my 88 solely because the BP owners I have met in person at expos strongly disagree with this forum. The terrarium sticky for newbies showing a glass terrarium setup with zero ventilation also planted a seed of doubt in my mind. All other advice I've found here has been extremely helpful and I've followed it to the T.

Maybe if I met you in person, talked with you for a few, and saw your collection I'd change my mind about the temps. That's the kinda guy I am. These guys I've met have led me to believe that 92-94 is playing it (dangerously) too safe. Based on that, I didn't want this guy immediately believing he killed his snake because he kept it at 85.

At the end of the day, you are right about my lack of experience. I'd really like to see what the doctor says about his snake.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Name one of them Please!

I need to know who Not to buy from in the future..

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There are expos by me (north Chicago) every other week that I've been going to. I just dug up some of the cards...
Ron Billingsley Reptiles @ www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com
I just checked the link and it's garbage though. I talked to Ron a good deal.
Here's another
www.ballpython777.com These guys too agreed with Ron's 88.

These are all I have in front of me... I think a few others are in my car. I'm hitting the sack in a sec, but I will post back tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

not a possible RI from a temp of 85 degrees.

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What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about a snake getting a respiratory infection at 85 degrees ... temps need to be much cooler than that to cause an RI ... I guess you just don't "get it".

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

And, again, I said that your point about the size of the tank (I have a 20 long compared with his 30) with the 85 on the warm + winter was a good one.

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Yeah, that would be because I know what I'm talking about ... I make my living breeding and selling ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I'll be sticking to my 88 solely because the BP owners I have met in person at expos strongly disagree with this forum.

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Yeah, and I've met people at expos that have said it's ok to keep ball pythons on cedar and feed them 3 or 4 jumbo rats a week. If you look hard enough you can find someone to tell you anything you want to hear. The fact is that the biggest ball python breeders on the planet keep their snakes on a 92 - 94 degree hot spot and it works.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Maybe if I met you in person, talked with you for a few, and saw your collection I'd change my mind about the temps. That's the kinda guy I am.

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Lucky me.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

These guys I've met have led me to believe that 92-94 is playing it (dangerously) too safe.

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I don't even understand what that means? First 92-94 is too hot and now it's too safe? I have 500+ ball pythons right this very second sitting on 94 degree hot spots ... they are fine. What aren't you understanding?

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Based on that, I didn't want this guy immediately believing he killed his snake because he kept it at 85.

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No one is talking about 85. What I am saying (that again you're not understanding) is that with no heat on the cool side, those temps could have gotten down into the low 70's or high 60's which can and certainly will cause a URI.

-adam