Husbandry issue?

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

[B][B]Hello Everyone,

I am the owner of two ball pythons, One of them i have had for 1 1/2 years and the other for about 4 months. Origionally I kept the little guy in a seperate 20 gallon tank, but my husband decided it would be a good idea to put him in with the big snake. I know it is winter and the bigger snake (Niko) did not want to eat before we put the little one in, we tried to get him to eat a baby rat 3x's but he didnt budge. So we have left them both alone for the last week and a half. It seems now Niko is about to shed and hasnt eaten in 3 1/2 weeks, the little one ate last week (still eats baby mice)
I got the second snake from a girl that at first thought was a boa and completely negleted it, and kept a red heat lamp directly above it 24-7. I know it isnt the best idea to keep two snakes together, expecially since there is a difference in size. As far as fighting over the space, it seems that even though i have two caves for them they still sleep with eachother, Niko doesnt try crushing the little one or taking up the entire heat pad, under the tank, he lets the little one pretty much take up all the space in the cave. Everytime the little on comes out to climb, the big one is right their and they are always slithering all over eachother and seem to be fine. Niko had a buddy a long time ago when we first got him, we bought another ball. But the other one escaped and, I later found him in the closet dead. Yes, i have taken big measures to assure that does not happen again. We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom. Do you all think that Niko is stressed out because of the little one? I have taken Niko to the vet, he was checked out and everyhting seems just fine, The fact is he always even in the winter time had a great appetite. The little one has had an issue fully shedding, but theres just a little bit of unshed skin near his head. Nothing really huge and they seem to deficate just fine also. I give them warm baths at least once a week, I make sure there is humididty. I might just be freaking out, because this is the first time he hasnt eatin in this amount of time. Since he got igger we cut down his feeding to once every two weeks.If anyone has any suggestions, I would liike to hear from you.
Thanks

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Wow! First, welcome to the forum! Now onto your post! :)

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but my husband decided it would be a good idea to put him in with the big snake.

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What made your husband decide this?

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I know it is winter and the bigger snake (Niko) did not want to eat before we put the little one in, we tried to get him to eat a baby rat 3x's but he didnt budge

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Winter really isn't the problem - I have 15 ball pythons, none of them are fasting this winter. Most fasting problems are a result and one of or a combination of:

1) Stress - caused by housing together
2) Incorrect temps (92-94 on the warm side, 82-84 on the cool side - measured by a digital thermometer)
3) Enclosures too large (ball pythons like small, cramped quarters - they seek out tight burrows in the wild, and don't spend a lot of time in open areas - that would leave them open to predation.
4) Overhandling
5) Overfeeding

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I know it isnt the best idea to keep two snakes together, expecially since there is a difference in size. As far as fighting over the space, it seems that even though i have two caves for them they still sleep with eachother, Niko doesnt try crushing the little one or taking up the entire heat pad, under the tank, he lets the little one pretty much take up all the space in the cave. Everytime the little on comes out to climb, the big one is right their and they are always slithering all over eachother and seem to be fine.

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You are correct, it is NOT the best idea. What you are describing is a classic case of domination. Niko is trying to dominate the little one. Wherever the little one goes, Niko is following in order to make sure the little one isn't getting the "best of" whatever it is that little one likes. And the little one is trying without success to leave Niko, but cannot, because he's being forced to share the same enclosure with Niko. It has nothing to do with affection or caring for each other. They are not fine.

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We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom.

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170 gallons is entirely too large. A large number of the members here (myself included) keep our collection in tub set-ups. It is not cruel by any stretch of the imagination. As I said before - all fifteen of mine, housed separately and in tubs are eating each and every week with no refusals. That's a pretty clear indication that they are happy and healthy.

The vines, and vegetation stuff is for the keeper's pleasure, not the snakes. They could care less. Ball pythons may live in the grasslands, but they spend most of their time in termite mounds and burrows, and ambush hunt from the entrances of those burrows. They really only leave them in order to find a new burrow.

If you want to more closely mimic their home environment, the tubs provide more of a burrowing effect that they prefer.

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Do you all think that Niko is stressed out because of the little one? I have taken Niko to the vet, he was checked out and everyhting seems just fine, The fact is he always even in the winter time had a great appetite.

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Bingo!

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If anyone has any suggestions, I would liike to hear from you.

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My suggestions - separate them immediately, get them smaller enclosures, MUCH smaller enclosures, and stick to routines (feeding on the same day each week, smaller meals each week).

Having kept ball pythons in both tanks and in tubs, from my own PERSONAL experiences, I've had more success with tubs than I ever did with glass vivs. I have better feeding responses and better growth, better sheds. I don't see any downside to keeping in tubs.

I do have many hiding spots all over the cage, and they climb all over the place, I have a vine that hangs in the middle and they climb from one side to the other. They do this all night long. If my snake was so stressed This fact alone, of being in a tank this large by himself for the past year...wouldnt he have started haveing symptoms erlier on? Since hes been in this cage, he has never experienced any problems.

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

Also the bigger one (Niko) was not eating before we put the little one in there.

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From what I've read elsewhere on the site, Niko eating now that another ball is in his territory is his way of competing for resources. Niko crawling all over the smaller ball when he's out and about is another show of competition and dominence. Sleeping in the same hide with the other ball is a sign of competition and dominence.

Competition for hides, food and other things = stress for the snakes. Which is why keeping them together isn't good. From what I've read it can cause health problems in the long run.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, I don't even own a BP yet. But I've done a lot of reading...and this is my interpretation of what I've read.

--Kim

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

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This site right here is good concrete proof. Here's a thread you should probably read.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=23890

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

I do have many hiding spots all over the cage, and they climb all over the place, I have a vine that hangs in the middle and they climb from one side to the other. They do this all night long. If my snake was so stressed This fact alone, of being in a tank this large by himself for the past year...wouldnt he have started haveing symptoms erlier on? Since hes been in this cage, he has never experienced any problems.

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pacing all back and forth all nite IS a sigh of stress

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

I do have many hiding spots all over the cage, and they climb all over the place, I have a vine that hangs in the middle and they climb from one side to the other. They do this all night long. If my snake was so stressed This fact alone, of being in a tank this large by himself for the past year...wouldnt he have started haveing symptoms erlier on? Since hes been in this cage, he has never experienced any problems.

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The advice has been given to you....take it or leave it.

What are thay supposed to do if they dont climb and pace around, how will they get any exercise? Are they better off just laying in one spot all the time?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Anyone have that link that showed the ball pythons were housed together and the cannibalism and subsequent death of both of them?

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Here are links to my photobucket where I have them saved:

http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...hon%20Example/

they dont climd in the wild..hes climbing prolly b/c there in the way...BPs thrive in small secure enclosures w/ good humidity and a place to hide

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

What are thay supposed to do if they dont climb and pace around, how will they get any exercise? Are they better off just laying in one spot all the time?

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That's their natural behavior. They are not arboreal, so they don't need to climb. If they are pacing, they are stressed.