Spider Head Shaking genetic defect

I have a spider that had a bit of a head wobble when it was a baby but she outgrew it in about 2 months and now there is nothing at all. I have also heard of others with the wobble outgrowing it so maybe yours will too. One thing about mine was she didn't do it all of the time so it was barely noticable. She would only do it on occasion and only when I would hold her...

Its recently occurred to me that I've got an '04 normal female with a mild case of the spins. She's never wobbled or twitched, but she does have the tendency not to right herself or stay oriented to the ground.

Completely unaware of the issue and assuming that maybe she just "rides the short bus," I've raised her up to 1500 grams and is currently paired with a normal male. Just food for thought when other people try to make a big freakin deal about it.

That's actually an interesting moral dilemma that I think most breeders will have to face eventually. As it is, morphs are bred to produce certain colorful attributes. But at the same time, I imagine some of them might have other detrimental qualities such as spinning, kinks, deformed heads/mouths, etc. Many of these negative qualities might affect the quality of life for these animals, or might just be sad to look at to the average person.

So the question comes up do you cull these animals, or simply make a conscious decision to not breed them or sell them to someone as a pet only? Tough decision when it comes to a morph worth thousands of dollars, but I think for a breeder who wants to make a name for himself, it would be worth it in the long run simply to associate your name with quality animals. :juggle:

The thing about spinners is that it doesn't ALWAYS pass on to the offspring. Kinking doesn't ALWAYS pass on to the offspring.

If there's a trait that doesn't affect the overall quality of life of the animal, I don't see an issue with breeding it. As long as you keep adding new blood to the line, your resulting offspring shouldn't be any more suceptible(sp?) to defects that anyone else is.

That's true, but I think very little is known about these defects in Balls. You make a point that they aren't always passed on, but if they are genetic then perhaps they're recessive. Do you think a breeder should disclose that the animal they are selling might be het for spinning or kinking?

I think a big breeder would be better at answering that than me, but my opinion on it is that I don't think you can look at an animal being "het" for some defect that same way we talk about something being het for a color morph. Genetics are MUCH MUCH more complicated than the simplified punnent squares we're used to when visualizing simple recessive or co-dom genetics, and way beyond my understanding.

Any reputable breeder would have no problem disclosing or discussing those issues. If they won't talk about it with you, DON'T send them a DIME.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

That's true, but I think very little is known about these defects in Balls. You make a point that they aren't always passed on, but if they are genetic then perhaps they're recessive. Do you think a breeder should disclose that the animal they are selling might be het for spinning or kinking?

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A good breeder will. "Good" meaning honest and upright. I made a deal with Adam to buy a het-caramel female from him. Before I ever sent him any money, he sent me a long e-mail explaining the risks of possible kinking in caramels and included as much actual statistics as there are to be had. Then asked me to please keep all this in mind before making that final commitment and sending him the money. THAT's good business!

And that little one I was eyeing will be here day after tomorrow!! :bounce: (Honestly people, you have NO idea how often I hold myself back from jabbering about that in every thread! LOL)

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Originally Posted by JLC

And that little one I was eyeing will be here day after tomorrow!! :bounce: (Honestly people, you have NO idea how often I hold myself back from jabbering about that in every thread! LOL)

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I can't wait until you get her either! I have some idea what that's like! I tried not to bore people with my excitement over getting my new girls, and I'm sure when Piper is born and he and Casper are ready to leave Adam's I'll be all giddy about them as well! LOL

Money lost or money to gain will motivate people to breed animals with genetic defects....this ruined a lot of dog breeds rots, american bulldogs ,pitbulls, mastiffs etc. Back yard breeders breeding animals for the sole purpose of cash. Reading this thread makes me worry what the future may hold for reptiles.

I don't think you can't fully equate dog breeding and the genetic issues with reptile breeding. Yes some of the ethics may hold true but remember the numbers. A puppy mill can start breeding female dogs at a much earlier age and get more and bigger litters from back to back breeding. By the nature of snakes you just cannot do this. Yes you could probably breed a female ball a bit young...but not at 6 months of age. Neither can you, as far as I know, get more than one clutch from her per breeding season. In some ways, reptiles are self-regulating more than mammals when it comes to human interference and over-breeding. I'm not a breeding expert, nor even experienced, but if you can double clutch ball pythons I've never seen any mention of it so please correct me if I'm wrong. You can't really create a snake mill I wouldn't think like you can a puppy mill...the numbers just don't add up fast enough...the turnaround is too slow for the greedy creeps like those in the puppy mill world.

The discussion though on breeding ethics as it pertains to any possibility of genetic defect in breeding stock is a good one. Mike and I have spent a lot of hours discussing scenerios and what decisions we might have to make down the road.