The ethos of breeders

No ruffles and no humoring - it just seemed it was getting convoluted trying to follow the different topics.

OK now fire away - hopefully wasn't too awkward of a thread split (my first - how proud I am :P)

Looks good Matt!

Ok, let me try and phrase this without implying anything against anyone specific ...

If a breeder/broker/seller has an otherwise flawless reputation for customer service and quality animals, is there a crime or category of crimes that he/she could be charged with or convicted of that would make you think otherwise about doing business with them in the future?

-adam

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No matter the crime? So hypothetically, if a breeder with a fantastic reputation and amazing animals made the mistake of getting in a car drunk and killed a child, would that tarnish their reputation or should they still be given a break. It's a stretch, but I find it hard to believe that there is no line that can be crossed that would make a person turn the other way no matter how good the service or the animals?

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It is an interesting argument and moral/ethical dilemna isn't it?

Is it more damning if your crime is in the same venue as your career? Is it all moral and ethical relativism? If laws were enacted in this state making all manner of "exotic animals" illegal to keep - and all manner of pythons then of course fell under that umbrella - and if, further i continued to secretly (or not so secretly given THIS bp.net endeavor) harbor my hobby how loathesome would that make me? Would that cross the line to such a degree folks would stop coming to the site?


Where is Dostoevsky when you need him!



EDIT - while scrambling to split, reroute, move etc these posts I missed that reply and posted the above.


You have framed the question in a much much better way thank you.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No matter the crime? So hypothetically, if a breeder with a fantastic reputation and amazing animals made the mistake of getting in a car drunk and killed a child, would that tarnish their reputation or should they still be given a break. It's a stretch, but I find it hard to believe that there is no line that can be crossed that would make a person turn the other way no matter how good the service or the animals?

Jeanne, please don't take this as me suggesting you are right or wrong ... I myself don't really know where I stand on the issue ... I have some very good friends that have done some shady things and it is certainly very troubling ... I was just really looking for more of a discussion about what makes a seller a good seller and should their personal acts outside of the selling of reptiles bear weight on a buyers decision to do business with them? .... Is having great service and amazing animals enough or do consumers hold sellers to a higher standard?

Am I losing everyone on this ... I'm really not trying to stir the pot ... just asking a question.

-adam

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You're not losing me on this one, I am following what you are saying. LOL Really I think it is a personal decision that one must make when choosing to buy from someone, what they base it on, I am thinking, would be up to them, moral, etc. Its really about how "you" as a buyer feels on if you should base your purchases on stuff they do outside thier business.

You said you have friends who have done some shady things that are troubling.. have you purchased things from them? I too have friends that have done shady things, but did it stop me from purchasing things at thier say.. garage sale? No, because the things they did/do outside of that garage sale does not effect me or the sale of a particular item. But I do know in my heart and mind the things they do are not right, just means I dont participate in those activities. And I also figure, the strong arm of the law will catch up to them eventually should they get careless.

For me, I base my decisions on thier business, quality of animals, customer service,price, etc. I would also give you the same consideration or any other out there. I do understand where your coming from on this, however, I think it is a personal decision one must make and feel comfortable with, then and in the future.

I think it's all based on the opinion of the buyer (unfortunately or not). They have to determine themselves whether a crime is immoral or not (yes, Dostoyevsky (sp?) would do very well on this subject!).


I mean, personally, I wouldn't buy from a person who got caught selling drugs or was convicted for DUI and manslaughter. I don't care about the quality of their animals... at that point, I don't like them as a person. But, for importing or selling illegal turtles... I don't know. He broke the law but wasn't hurting anyone but himself. So, yes, I'd probably still buy from him.

It's all based on people's opinions and emotional biases, I guess... if that makes sense.

EDIT: All right, I was late on this. Sorry!

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

If laws were enacted in this state making all manner of "exotic animals" illegal to keep - and all manner of pythons then of course fell under that umbrella - and if, further i continued to secretly (or not so secretly given THIS bp.net endeavor) harbor my hobby how loathesome would that make me? Would that cross the line to such a degree folks would stop coming to the site?

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It may be loathesome to some, but I think the understanding that you had these animals before the law was passed and your love for them would be taken into consideration by most, in fact, I think most would "put themselves in your shoes" so to speak. Would it stop someone from coming to this site.. not likely.

I'd be much more concerned about crimes involving the consumer as a victim (as above however there are obvious "greater crimes" against humanity, minors etc etc - all the heinous stuff) than those involving victimless infractions of the law.

I don't think ANYONE is condoning his actions in the LEAST.


I can understand the angle of the question stemming from the fact that the law involved was a herp-oriented law. Traffic/licensure violations for the sake of argument would harldy be fit to breach this topic, no?

Is that the crux of the biscuit?

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I mean, personally, I wouldn't buy from a person who got caught selling drugs or was convicted for DUI and manslaughter. I don't care about the quality of their animals... at that point, I don't like them as a person. But, for importing or selling illegal turtles... I don't know. He broke the law but wasn't hurting anyone but himself. So, yes, I'd probably still buy from him.

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Thank you! ... I think that's more what I was looking for on this one ... Realizing that it's a personal decision based on the buyers own morals ... I was just trying to figure out what the consensus would be on a socially unacceptable "line" of either immoral or criminal behavior would be.

I think for me it all boils down to an awesome banner that our own Joe Compel is running on another site ... I saw it the other day and it really inspired me ... It says simply ... "Integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking". I strive to run my business and my life based on integrity. The deeper I get into the reptile business the more and more I see the shortcuts and traps that many aspiring breeders fall into. Sometimes I think to myself "it would be so much easier if I did this" ... or "I could get this many more new morphs if I did this" ... but in the end, even if no one knew about the shortcuts I took, I would know and that's just not how I want to live my life.

Emotionally it's a real struggle for me when people that I know either as friends or in the business and generally respect as good people take "shortcuts" and do something wrong either morally or criminally. I always find myself asking "well, if that's what I know about, what are the things that I don't know about?". I think this is something that I will probably struggle with for a long time.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

I'd be much more concerned about crimes involving the consumer as a victim than those involving victimless infractions of the law.

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Exactly! Same here.

And maybe it's true... maybe because it was a herp law he broke---and we all have biases against herp laws---it doesn't matter so much to us. Another morality issue.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Is that the crux of the biscuit?

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No, not really ... I think it is the depth of customer loyalty and the strength of a good reputation that I was questioning?

For example, a ball python breeder had recently gotten himself jammed up for allegedly having some breeding loads go really bad ... This happens every year in the ball python world with someone so it's not all too shocking ... but I read a post where someone said that if the breeder made restitution that the poster will still do business with him because he was such a great guy??? I was stunned when I read that.

I think Jeanne statement that she would still do business with Don knowing what she knows kind of led to the "where is the line question?" .... Certainly doesn't condone anything, but where is the comfort level ... from running a red light, to breaking a federal law, to stealing someones animals, to drugs, to murder ... where is that line?

-adam