Heat mat and substrate

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Additionally, in the video you’ve linked here, there is no thermostat being used. That is a thermoMETER used solely for reading temperatures, not to control the power provided to the heat element.

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He says thermostat. He uses the $5 thermometer because its $5 and not $30 or more. Also, that brand is easy to remove from its packaging and put it back in, unless they changed it recently.

I've been to his store. I've personally talked to him several times. He knows his stuff.

But lets continue to measure epeens after I already stated that there's not an absolute here, just a difference of opinion within the reptile community.

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Originally Posted by Ranulf

He says thermostat. He uses the $5 thermometer because its $5 and not $30 or more. Also, that brand is easy to remove from its packaging and put it back in, unless they changed it recently.

I've been to his store. I've personally talked to him several times. He knows his stuff.

But lets continue to measure epeens after I already stated that there's not an absolute here, just a difference of opinion within the reptile community.

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Not trying to flex on you, dude. In the video he makes one mention of a RHEOSTAT. Functionally that’s just a light dimmer switch that must be manually regulated by the operator of the heating element as temperatures fluctuate within the space that it is being operated.

A THERMOSTAT will actively read the temp and adjust the power provided to the heating element by either turning it off or on when temps exceed or fall short of the set temperature (on/off style), or will gradually increase the % of power used depending on the reading relative to the set temperature (proportional style).

If you don’t want to listen to the widely accepted practice of placing the probe sensor of an automatic temperature regulation device (thermoSTAT) between the UTH and the enclosure bottom then that’s on you.

Just please don’t spread incorrect information on here where new keepers often come looking for safe, helpful advice on how to care for their animals.



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Dialing up the thermostat to 100F? 95F?

That can't be right. That is way too hot for a ball python. The actual read would be 2+ or - or more degrees off than the dialed temp (Depending on the quality and accuracy of the thermostat too). Keep in mind that these snakes in the wild spend most of their day hiding in tunnels, holes and termite mounds, places that are cooler and slightly humid and the temp at night is cooler too. Why would a ball python need temps over 90F?

I've talked to the dude. He has sold me all of my THERMOstats. He is a successful breeder of snakes, and all the animals in his store are healthy, with good husbandry provided.

In my opinion, it is you who are propagating misinformation that is based on fear and little else. The method you promote does not result in accurate temperature monitoring, as your thermostat is not actually regulating the temperature in the tank, especially if you also use a radiant heat panel or a lamp. Placing the thermostat probe under the glass can and does result in higher temperatures than desired. Thankfully, there is some leeway, and the temperatures usually are not high enough to damage the snake. If the entire tank is resting on the probe, or if there is excessive pressure on the probe at all, this can damage the probe and result in inaccurate readings.

Taking apart and rebuilding temperature probes is part of what a nuclear worker has to do. We are very concerned about proper temperature monitoring, and we are required to learn all the necessary theory behind their operation. Also, the math. The math can be fun. Heat transfer, woo!

I'm not speaking from a point of ignorance here. I don't think placing the thermostat probe between the mat and the glass is the best practice, but it works for people. If it makes people feel better, and they are OK with the hoops they have to jump through to ensure they achieve safe and correct temperatures for their snakes.... Live and let live I say.

There is also an important snippet you should recall from one of our stickies:


"We strive to provide an open-minded atmosphere where different methods and approaches to the same goals can be discussed and offered up as viable options. The GOAL is to have healthy, thriving animals who are as content in their world as we can make them. The methods for arriving at that goal are varied, and sometimes changing and evolving as we all learn more. Each and every method carries its own set of risks and benefits. "

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

Dialing up the thermostat to 100F? 95F?

That can't be right. That is way too hot for a ball python. The actual read would be 2+ or - or more degrees off than the dialed temp (Depending on the quality and accuracy of the thermostat too). Keep in mind that these snakes in the wild spend most of their day hiding in tunnels, holes and termite mounds, places that are cooler and slightly humid and the temp at night is cooler too. Why would a ball python need temps over 90F?

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As someone who has worked with nuclear-grade temperature monitoring equipment, the temperature probes most commonly used by the reptile world are very simple and do not have the necessary complexity to ensure pinpoint accuracy. They also do not all perform the same, even when comparing different thermostats of the same type from the same company. Your heat gun temperatures are likely more accurate than your thermostat temperatures, as long as you are using them properly, as they have the necessary hardware for improved accuracy.

If your heat gun temperatures are still reading low (80s) even if your temperature is set at 95 and you have a heat lamp for ambient temperatures, its likely your thermostat is not reading temperatures very accurately, thus requiring you to compensate by using an accurate temperature measuring device (heat gun) to figure out how much you need to adjust by.

I set my hotside thermostats at 88-92 degrees depending on the temperature of the room my snake is in. Heat gun temperatures on the surface vary from 85-92 and are usually within a few degrees of the set temp at the glass.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2f0cbb2b22.jpg


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https://youtu.be/rNpljc5aH1k

Very good vid illustrating how to set up a thermostat probe, as well as general tub set up.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

You want to measure the temp of the glass, not the top of the substrate. The animal will move substrate to get to the heat pad. If it’s 90° on top of the substrate it’s hot enough to burn the animal underneath the substrate


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Correct! Total common sense when you think about it. Ball pythons are typically found in burrows, all be it abandon burrows of other animals most of the time. They are terrestrial and will hug a heat source if needed. If that heat source is too hot the result will be a thermal burn.

Snakes are able to raise and flatten their bodies to regulate themselves. In the process they most definitely can shuffle substrate whether it is intentional or not. I don't have a single snake in my collection that hasn't moved substrate around to the point of laying flat on the cage floor. Royal, carpet, boa constrictor or retic, they all move their substrate.

The safe way to play it is exactly the way JM mentioned, it is practiced widely and proven safe.

Good luck with your animal.

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Originally Posted by Ranulf

I follow the recommendations of a reputable breeder in my area and I use safe thermostats.

I am a nuclear worker who is extremely familiar with control and indication, and there have been no issues.

These are simply two different schools of thought. I have never dumped water on the thermostat, and even if I did, it would significantly cool the entire substrate until it evaporated. It wouldn't create dangerous temperatures, as that probe is reading the actual temperatures in the tank. When the temperatures increase, the thermostat will function as normal and turn off the heat. Substrate has generally good capillary action and water will spread throughout the bottom of the tank. The entire tank will be cooled.

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Placing the thermostat probe between the mat and the glass creates a problem. Inefficient heat transfer, and inaccurate temperature readings in the tank. I do not like this, as I want uniform heat transfer at all points where my heat mat touches the glass.

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Both methods seem to work for people, and its very much up to personal choice.


There are no absolutes in this, do what works for you

https://youtu.be/8Hq3RzDE_uE

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You talk a good talk but it's the talk of someone with limited experience providing dangerous advice and that needs to be called out.

Everyone with experience, any professional breeder out there (and I mean real breeder) place the t-stat prob directly on the heat source not in the enclosure, it's pretty simple if you place the T-stat in the enclosure the prob can be cool down, or dislodge making the temperature shoot up, leading to burns or worse. IT'S COMMON SENSE.

There are more way than one to do a lot of things but this is not one of them, and you have a LOT to learn especially if you one day you are considering breeding.

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Originally Posted by Ranulf

There is also an important snippet you should recall from one of our stickies:


"We strive to provide an open-minded atmosphere where different methods and approaches to the same goals can be discussed and offered up as viable options. The GOAL is to have healthy, thriving animals who are as content in their world as we can make them. The methods for arriving at that goal are varied, and sometimes changing and evolving as we all learn more. Each and every method carries its own set of risks and benefits. "

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And since you want to quote something I have one for you as well

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Dangerous Advice -- 10 pts
Telling someone to do something completely contrary to known safe methods of husbandry. Not something "different" from normal methods, but things known to be dangerous or potentially harmful. Whether in jest or in seriousness, it matters not.

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

Dialing up the thermostat to 100F? 95F?

That can't be right. That is way too hot for a ball python. The actual read would be 2+ or - or more degrees off than the dialed temp (Depending on the quality and accuracy of the thermostat too). Keep in mind that these snakes in the wild spend most of their day hiding in tunnels, holes and termite mounds, places that are cooler and slightly humid and the temp at night is cooler too. Why would a ball python need temps over 90F?

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Thermostat setting and temperatures in the tank are 2 different things, the differential will depends on several factors such as type of enclosure substrate used etc.