Probe Placement spin-off

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dianne

Just to add another point for probe placement, all of my thermostats specifically state not to put the probe where liquid can get between the steel tip and the cable. For wet applications, you purchase a probe specifically for that type of application which is appropriately sealed or purchase a specialized casing for the probe based on manufacturer specs. I’m prone to reading all of the literature that comes with my equipment, so maybe others have not.

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Another great point. But at this point, I think it's moot. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink...

Anyway, this thread has been derailed enough.

OP, I apologize. Best wishes moving forward...

My t-stat probes are inside my tubs and tanks. Some of my snakes had peed and poor next to or near the probe. No one got burned. Temps did not rise to "dangerous" levels if you consider +2 degrees as extreme. Everyone's temps are checked daily.

Certainly I don't have years of experience under my belt. I am not discrediting those who do but being condescending or calling others stubborn is really not the right way to do anything. If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way.

"If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way."

Yup, and many a keeper HAS figured out things along the way. The hard way. And the animals paid the price.

Sure, all streets lead to Rome and things can be done a hundred different ways. However, when it comes to LIVE animals, perhaps its just smart to go along with what has been established to be the best and safest way to go about things. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had relative newbies boast how their way is just fine and people are just to dang picky. Only to end up NOT being fine one day, and there is the burned animals, there is the sick animal, there is the chewed upon animal, there is the escaped animal, there is the dead animal.

Lesson learned.

No one here is being condescending. Anyone that has been in this hobby for a long time has seen what this hap hazardous ignoring of good advice can lead to. We all have seen the crispy, red and bleeding bellies of snakes.

It works for you to have the probe inside? Great. It will keep on working. Until it doesn't. If you say they do not move, then obviously you have fastened them down. Since you have glass and pvc cages, you must have them glued down. At least I hope there isn't any tape. Any glue can fail over time. I've seen hot glue pop off of a smooth surface without much effort. Other glues as well. Esp. if they are subjected to wetness or corrosive liquids. Any probe, plastic or whatever, is connected to a cable. That cable is usually not one piece construction covering the probe. There is a connection somewhere. Sure, usually fairly water proof. But give it time and liquid will find a way.

So can it work ? Of course. Maybe even years. But why take the risk ? If glue pops off, or tape, or the animal is in any way whatsoever able to move the probe, even if just a few inches or up onto their body, the heat will be wide open. Enough to burn your animal very badly. All it takes is just that one time.

Can a thermostat or probe fail otherwise too? If installed correctly and safely away from the inside of a enclosure? Yes. HOWEVER, what we should strive for is to do the best we can. The safest. The way that has been proven to work the best. And why not? Its not like its a big deal or difficult to do.

In a forum such as that, where many newbies come to, you always want to hand out the best advice there is. Let them learn the well established proven way to keep their animal safe.

Heat (right, or to high, or to low) is a HUGE part of keeping reptiles. And keeping them safe and healthy. Why risk it?

I've seen Ball Pythons live for years without thermometers. Some with heat rocks. Does that mean we should tell people to do this? Because, why not ? It works for some and their animals "are healthy, eating and doing well". But we don't do it. Because we have learned, through trial and error, that this can quickly go very bad.

I tend to take risks such as that with myself. After all, I know what I'm doing. And if I get hurt through my own stupidity, well, I've got myself to blame, don't I? I rode horses for years without a helmet, bareback at that. Until I got thrown off my horse because someone spooked her badly and she took off. I rode that fine, its her sudden stop that made me hit the ground with enough force to cause blood clots deep in my eyes. I landed on my head and upper back. 6 inches away from a rail road tie. Had I hit that, I'd probably be dead. I KNEW the risk, but I took it anyway. Hey, it worked for years. Works for others.

But animals in our care have no say. They depend on us entirely to be responsible and make the best decisions. So I'm always careful to weigh all the options and go with true and tried methods. While no method is entirely risk free, taking the LEAST risk is what I want for my animals.

All that said, you can do what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind whatsoever, I can tell you aren't open to that anyway. The reason I typed all this out is for anyone that may be on the fence about doing things "just so" when it seems that perhaps its not all that necessary. And for the newbies that wonder if they really should bother do things the way the way they are recommended.

The risk when done correctly is minimal. The probes are designed to be able to go inside the enclosure. I don't know why so many here have to say it's wrong to put the probe inside the enclosure when most of the reasons aren't valid. Could something get inside the probe through the joint and ruin it? Sure. But the electrical connection could also be ruined from the higher temperatures and cycling that occurs from keeping the probe on the heat source.

I never said one way is better or worse than another way. To say that it's wrong or super dangerous to have a probe inside an enclosure is just incorrect.

I don't see the reason to scare new people into thinking they did something terribly wrong by putting the probe inside the enclosure, which is what I've seen here. If the probe moves from the hot spot could the temps get too high? Yes. But some thermostats shut off power when they read temps out of range. Plus that can be solved by securing the probe in place.

And no, I don't have tape or glue holding things in place.

Zina, you won't change my mind because both ways of doing it can be done safely.

I said I didn't want nor meant to change your mind.

No matter how you secure the probe in a cage, there is more of a chance of it getting ruined by liquid or moved by an animal. If not glued or taped, how else is it secured? You cannot screw into a glass tank and you shouldn't into any other enclosure, because you will create a way for liquids to seep into the holes.

It would need to be secured to where the animal could not move it. BP's are heavy bodied snakes. They often shimmy and burrow their bodies to the bottom of the substrate, they move their hides and water dishes around as well, they push and pull stuff along.

So while YOU may have found the perfect way of securing a probe inside of a tank, without tape, glue, screws and in a way that the animal cannot move it, it seems to me that accomplishing that would be harder to do then to simply put it out of reach of the snake and its waste. Secured to the heat source, so that it keeps the heat source at the temp selected.

It seems common sense and the best/easiest way to accomplish the safest way.

But we can agree to disagree ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

"If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way."

Yup, and many a keeper HAS figured out things along the way. The hard way. And the animals paid the price.

Sure, all streets lead to Rome and things can be done a hundred different ways. However, when it comes to LIVE animals, perhaps its just smart to go along with what has been established to be the best and safest way to go about things. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had relative newbies boast how their way is just fine and people are just to dang picky. Only to end up NOT being fine one day, and there is the burned animals, there is the sick animal, there is the chewed upon animal, there is the escaped animal, there is the dead animal.

Lesson learned.

No one here is being condescending. Anyone that has been in this hobby for a long time has seen what this hap hazardous ignoring of good advice can lead to. We all have seen the crispy, red and bleeding bellies of snakes.

It works for you to have the probe inside? Great. It will keep on working. Until it doesn't. If you say they do not move, then obviously you have fastened them down. Since you have glass and pvc cages, you must have them glued down. At least I hope there isn't any tape. Any glue can fail over time. I've seen hot glue pop off of a smooth surface without much effort. Other glues as well. Esp. if they are subjected to wetness or corrosive liquids. Any probe, plastic or whatever, is connected to a cable. That cable is usually not one piece construction covering the probe. There is a connection somewhere. Sure, usually fairly water proof. But give it time and liquid will find a way.

So can it work ? Of course. Maybe even years. But why take the risk ? If glue pops off, or tape, or the animal is in any way whatsoever able to move the probe, even if just a few inches or up onto their body, the heat will be wide open. Enough to burn your animal very badly. All it takes is just that one time.

Can a thermostat or probe fail otherwise too? If installed correctly and safely away from the inside of a enclosure? Yes. HOWEVER, what we should strive for is to do the best we can. The safest. The way that has been proven to work the best. And why not? Its not like its a big deal or difficult to do.

In a forum such as that, where many newbies come to, you always want to hand out the best advice there is. Let them learn the well established proven way to keep their animal safe.

Heat (right, or to high, or to low) is a HUGE part of keeping reptiles. And keeping them safe and healthy. Why risk it?

I've seen Ball Pythons live for years without thermometers. Some with heat rocks. Does that mean we should tell people to do this? Because, why not ? It works for some and their animals "are healthy, eating and doing well". But we don't do it. Because we have learned, through trial and error, that this can quickly go very bad.

I tend to take risks such as that with myself. After all, I know what I'm doing. And if I get hurt through my own stupidity, well, I've got myself to blame, don't I? I rode horses for years without a helmet, bareback at that. Until I got thrown off my horse because someone spooked her badly and she took off. I rode that fine, its her sudden stop that made me hit the ground with enough force to cause blood clots deep in my eyes. I landed on my head and upper back. 6 inches away from a rail road tie. Had I hit that, I'd probably be dead. I KNEW the risk, but I took it anyway. Hey, it worked for years. Works for others.

But animals in our care have no say. They depend on us entirely to be responsible and make the best decisions. So I'm always careful to weigh all the options and go with true and tried methods. While no method is entirely risk free, taking the LEAST risk is what I want for my animals.

All that said, you can do what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind whatsoever, I can tell you aren't open to that anyway. The reason I typed all this out is for anyone that may be on the fence about doing things "just so" when it seems that perhaps its not all that necessary. And for the newbies that wonder if they really should bother do things the way the way they are recommended.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

I said I didn't want nor meant to change your mind.

No matter how you secure the probe in a cage, there is more of a chance of it getting ruined by liquid or moved by an animal. If not glued or taped, how else is it secured? You cannot screw into a glass tank and you shouldn't into any other enclosure, because you will create a way for liquids to seep into the holes.

It would need to be secured to where the animal could not move it. BP's are heavy bodied snakes. They often shimmy and burrow their bodies to the bottom of the substrate, they move their hides and water dishes around as well, they push and pull stuff along.

So while YOU may have found the perfect way of securing a probe inside of a tank, without tape, glue, screws and in a way that the animal cannot move it, it seems to me that accomplishing that would be harder to do then to simply put it out of reach of the snake and its waste. Secured to the heat source, so that it keeps the heat source at the temp selected.

It seems common sense and the best/easiest way to accomplish the safest way.

But we can agree to disagree ;)

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Very well said, Zina.

It seems ignorance is bliss. Something tells me somewhere down the road, whether it's weeks, months, even years down the road OP will learn the hard way, and the snake will be the one to suffer.
All we can do is try, and hope to educate the ones willing to learn...

It may be a mistake to wade into this, but I always thought the reason the Tstat probe shouldn't be placed inside the enclosure was because the snake may inadvertently move the probe off the UTH. Since the UTH only heats the surface above it and does nothing for ambient, if the probe were moved to the cool side, that could and would cause a dangerous spike in temps.

Other wise SquirmyPug is correct about the transfer of heat. If the snake is laying on the probe then its body is the same temp as the substrate, and probe, and won't cause a spike in temp. If the snake peed on the probe then the animals urine is still the same temp as the animals body, which again is the same temp as the substrate and probe. So again, no temp spike. Of course there is the potential for the liquid to cause damage to the probe.

Not trying to stir anything up or garner any ill will. Just trying to point out that maybe everyone is correct!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

It may be a mistake to wade into this, but I always thought the reason the Tstat probe shouldn't be placed inside the enclosure was because the snake may inadvertently move the probe off the UTH. Since the UTH only heats the surface above it and does nothing for ambient, if the probe were moved to the cool side, that could and would cause a dangerous spike in temps.

Other wise SquirmyPug is correct about the transfer of heat. If the snake is laying on the probe then its body is the same temp as the substrate, and probe, and won't cause a spike in temp. If the snake peed on the probe then the animals urine is still the same temp as the animals body, which again is the same temp as the substrate and probe. So again, no temp spike. Of course there is the potential for the liquid to cause damage to the probe.

Not trying to stir anything up or garner any ill will. Just trying to point out that maybe everyone is correct!

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Thank you. That's all I've been saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

"If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way."

Yup, and many a keeper HAS figured out things along the way. The hard way. And the animals paid the price.

Sure, all streets lead to Rome and things can be done a hundred different ways. However, when it comes to LIVE animals, perhaps its just smart to go along with what has been established to be the best and safest way to go about things. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had relative newbies boast how their way is just fine and people are just to dang picky. Only to end up NOT being fine one day, and there is the burned animals, there is the sick animal, there is the chewed upon animal, there is the escaped animal, there is the dead animal.

Lesson learned.

No one here is being condescending. Anyone that has been in this hobby for a long time has seen what this hap hazardous ignoring of good advice can lead to. We all have seen the crispy, red and bleeding bellies of snakes.

It works for you to have the probe inside? Great. It will keep on working. Until it doesn't. If you say they do not move, then obviously you have fastened them down. Since you have glass and pvc cages, you must have them glued down. At least I hope there isn't any tape. Any glue can fail over time. I've seen hot glue pop off of a smooth surface without much effort. Other glues as well. Esp. if they are subjected to wetness or corrosive liquids. Any probe, plastic or whatever, is connected to a cable. That cable is usually not one piece construction covering the probe. There is a connection somewhere. Sure, usually fairly water proof. But give it time and liquid will find a way.

So can it work ? Of course. Maybe even years. But why take the risk ? If glue pops off, or tape, or the animal is in any way whatsoever able to move the probe, even if just a few inches or up onto their body, the heat will be wide open. Enough to burn your animal very badly. All it takes is just that one time.

Can a thermostat or probe fail otherwise too? If installed correctly and safely away from the inside of a enclosure? Yes. HOWEVER, what we should strive for is to do the best we can. The safest. The way that has been proven to work the best. And why not? Its not like its a big deal or difficult to do.

In a forum such as that, where many newbies come to, you always want to hand out the best advice there is. Let them learn the well established proven way to keep their animal safe.

Heat (right, or to high, or to low) is a HUGE part of keeping reptiles. And keeping them safe and healthy. Why risk it?

I've seen Ball Pythons live for years without thermometers. Some with heat rocks. Does that mean we should tell people to do this? Because, why not ? It works for some and their animals "are healthy, eating and doing well". But we don't do it. Because we have learned, through trial and error, that this can quickly go very bad.

I tend to take risks such as that with myself. After all, I know what I'm doing. And if I get hurt through my own stupidity, well, I've got myself to blame, don't I? I rode horses for years without a helmet, bareback at that. Until I got thrown off my horse because someone spooked her badly and she took off. I rode that fine, its her sudden stop that made me hit the ground with enough force to cause blood clots deep in my eyes. I landed on my head and upper back. 6 inches away from a rail road tie. Had I hit that, I'd probably be dead. I KNEW the risk, but I took it anyway. Hey, it worked for years. Works for others.

But animals in our care have no say. They depend on us entirely to be responsible and make the best decisions. So I'm always careful to weigh all the options and go with true and tried methods. While no method is entirely risk free, taking the LEAST risk is what I want for my animals.

All that said, you can do what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind whatsoever, I can tell you aren't open to that anyway. The reason I typed all this out is for anyone that may be on the fence about doing things "just so" when it seems that perhaps its not all that necessary. And for the newbies that wonder if they really should bother do things the way the way they are recommended.

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My response to OP was a short one because I wanted to leave it at that. I did not want to convince anyone to do it my way nor say that there is no way but 1 way to do things.

And do me a huge favor : you do not know me, so don't assume you think I am not "open to that anyways." The truth is, I read a lot of threads and responds to very few, probably 2 out of 10 the most, and that is if I felt something that worked for me might help or I refer that person to another poster's advice. I never once claimed I knew more. I had asked for help and opened to ALL suggestions to my questions. So I don't know how your remark about who you think I am is not the least condescending but okay. Moreover, there were some comments posted in response to others who did things differently by comparing the number of snakes one have, I guess that makes one's opinion completely invalid if you have less snakes? All newbies and old should be doing their own research. Opinions are exactly that, opinions. While the forums are great source of info, one should never rely strictly on only one source of information.

I looked at both sides of the argument and made my choice. If someone who have a pet snake that was burned by having a thermostat probe inside the tank (on the glass or tub), please elaborate because I am completely open to learning about that. Or any independent studies done on that would be even better. And I mean where there is the direct cause/effect of how a snake pee on a probe can cause fluctuations in temps so high that it burned the snake. So far I have read responses from keepers who is doing things a certain way because "it happened to someone else" plus graphic pics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

It may be a mistake to wade into this, but I always thought the reason the Tstat probe shouldn't be placed inside the enclosure was because the snake may inadvertently move the probe off the UTH. Since the UTH only heats the surface above it and does nothing for ambient, if the probe were moved to the cool side, that could and would cause a dangerous spike in temps.

Other wise SquirmyPug is correct about the transfer of heat. If the snake is laying on the probe then its body is the same temp as the substrate, and probe, and won't cause a spike in temp. If the snake peed on the probe then the animals urine is still the same temp as the animals body, which again is the same temp as the substrate and probe. So again, no temp spike. Of course there is the potential for the liquid to cause damage to the probe.

Not trying to stir anything up or garner any ill will. Just trying to point out that maybe everyone is correct!

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Completely agreed with the above.