I have officially been bitten by the snake bug!

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Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

By this math my hognose is about 24 inches long so he should do fine in a 6"x 4" cage.

A 2'x2' cage would not even give a 4ft terrestrial space to stretch out let alone explore or move around.

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Most snakes are pretty sedentary and really don't move about that much. I will say that I don't keep hoggies so I'm not sure about their activity levels but my 4ft kings did just fine in a split T8 with a shelf. They were in 40g tanks prior to that but they weren't using much of the space. I originally ordered 4x2s for them but saw it was a waste of space so my bulls and carpets went into them. Those are all 6ft- 8ft animals and they're in the 4x2s comfortably even though I want more vertical space for the carpets so they may get 4x2x2s instead of the 4x2x1s they're in now. My carpets spend more time perching and actually leave a very small cage imprint. My bulls and olive are my most active snakes and again their 4x2s give them room to roam. My olive will end up in a 6x2 or 8x2 just because he does move about a lot and uses more areas of his viv. He'll also potentially be in the 10-12 ft range. My snakes also get out of their enclosures regularly to stretch all the way out and even then they don't travel far or fast.

Again, i know i am outside the "norm" here.
But if you were stuck in a room your whole life, one that wasnt as long as you are tall or as tall as you are tall, wouldln't you eventually stop doing circles in it too? In the wild do you think balls or carpets or olives stick to a 4x2' square? Not a chance.
My ball explores every inch of his cage when he is exploring. There are constantly stories of snakes escaping and leaving entire rooms, not to mention cages.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

... I can see a hognose / king snake combo or a hognose / childrens or spotted python combo. That would be pretty awesome actually. Let us know what you come up with. ;)

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FYI, I've kept a spotted python (Antaresia maculosa) for about 10 years now, she is NOT "terrestrial". She spends a lot of time on her branches, basking & hanging
out. You'd be missing the fun of keeping one of these without cage height & full visibility & she is not shy either...she is quick to investigate my presence even if she
is in one of her hides. (she is sensitive to floor vibrations, I assume) If you want one of these, I'd use a bigger enclosure, & glass tanks (kept warm!) work just fine.

Maybe one of the small milk snakes or hognose would work ok though.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

FYI, I've kept a spotted python (Antaresia maculosa) for about 10 years now, she is NOT "terrestrial". She spends a lot of time on her branches, basking & hanging
out. You'd be missing the fun of keeping one of these without cage height & full visibility & she is not shy either...she is quick to investigate my presence even if she
is in one of her hides. (she is sensitive to floor vibrations, I assume) If you want one of these, I'd use a bigger enclosure, & glass tanks (kept warm!) work just fine.

Maybe one of the small milk snakes or hognose would work ok though.

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Ive been looking at these more and more now. The way you are describing them definitely makes them seem more interesting than the average story. Although i imagine it has at least a little to do with providing it with with much more than the minimum "recommended" requirements. More mental stimulation and what not.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Most snakes are pretty sedentary and really don't move about that much. I will say that I don't keep hoggies so I'm not sure about their activity levels but my 4ft kings did just fine in a split T8 with a shelf. They were in 40g tanks prior to that but they weren't using much of the space. I originally ordered 4x2s for them but saw it was a waste of space so my bulls and carpets went into them. Those are all 6ft- 8ft animals and they're in the 4x2s comfortably even though I want more vertical space for the carpets so they may get 4x2x2s instead of the 4x2x1s they're in now. My carpets spend more time perching and actually leave a very small cage imprint. My bulls and olive are my most active snakes and again their 4x2s give them room to roam. My olive will end up in a 6x2 or 8x2 just because he does move about a lot and uses more areas of his viv. He'll also potentially be in the 10-12 ft range. My snakes also get out of their enclosures regularly to stretch all the way out and even then they don't travel far or fast.

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I think it's actually a LENGTH AND a WIDTH not L x W ...


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Please don't get me wrong y'all. There's absolutely nothing wrong with large enclosures or providing lots of space for your critters. I'm by no means advocating for putting large animals in cramped spaces. My original comment was more in reference to younger / smaller snakes starting out in smaller enclosures. As my snakes grow so do their vivs. My 6ft carpets are in 4x2s. I think a 6ft cage is a bit of overkill for them since they're usually perched anyway. I've seen them perched in the same spot for weeks at a time. They mostly move around when they're hungry. After they eat they're just hanging out on the warm side or on a shelf or perch. Only one of my carpets (coastal) will actively cruise his viv. The olive is a different story altogether. He likes to roam his enclosure. He's only a juvenile so a 4x2 is good for now but he'll end up in a 6 or 8 ft cage as an adult.

I'm curious to hear what size enclosures you all keep your juvenile and adult critters in.

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Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Again, i know i am outside the "norm" here.
But if you were stuck in a room your whole life, one that wasnt as long as you are tall or as tall as you are tall, wouldn't you eventually stop doing circles in it too? In the wild do you think balls or carpets or olives stick to a 4x2' square? Not a chance.
My ball explores every inch of his cage when he is exploring.There are constantly stories of snakes escaping and leaving entire rooms, not to mention cages.

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@ John- Is your BP very active and what size enclosure do you keep it in? Would you put a 5 ft BP in a 6 or 8ft enclosure? None of us can provide an animal in captivity with the infinite space it would have to roam in the wild but I make sure my animals get lots of time outside their vivs to free roam just so they don't go stir crazy. I'm 6'2 and being confined to a 6x6 space would definitely drive me mad but snakes aren't people and many actually prefer smaller spaces. Don't most wild BPs live in burrows for most of their lives and usually only venture out in search of food or mating opportunities?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

FYI, I've kept a spotted python (Antaresia maculosa) for about 10 years now, she is NOT "terrestrial". She spends a lot of time on her branches, basking & hanging
out. You'd be missing the fun of keeping one of these without cage height & full visibility & she is not shy either...she is quick to investigate my presence even if she
is in one of her hides. (she is sensitive to floor vibrations, I assume) If you want one of these, I'd use a bigger enclosure, & glass tanks (kept warm!) work just fine.

Maybe one of the small milk snakes or hognose would work ok though.

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My apologies. I didn't mean to imply that Spotted Pythons were terrestrial critters. Like carpets they're semi arboreal so some vertical space should be provided. Does your spotted spend a lot of time on the ground as well as in the trees and what size enclosure do you keep your girl in?

Yes, at minimum. Mine now is just over 3 feet. And he is in a 4x2 tank. The hog is in a 4'x16" tank. I will be finished moving next weekend and will be building a 8x4x4' to divide into two 4x4x4 cubes for both my hog and bp. I also keep them in bioactive enclosures as i find doing this plus keeping a regulalrly timed sunrise/sunset brings out more natural behavior than i have previously had.
And yes, i realize that snakes have different habits and behaviors than humans. The point of what i was saying is that in a cramped cage without sufficient or even new mental stimuli from time to time your snake will get bored. Just like any creature.
Yes, but in the wild do you think a bp comes out once a week for 15 mins to get fed or does it have to come out sometimes night after night waiting to ambush something, Or find water or escape predation. Also they like their hides to be cramped, not their environments.
I also realize we are not world creators and dont have entire continents or planets to work with. But, since we did choose to take responsibility for an exotic animal it is not unreasonable to think that providing something as close to their home as we are able is within that scope of responsibility. As long as you provide the proper environment a bp would feel comfortable in an entire stadium. They live in the expansive outdoors in the wild and feel just fine about it.
The pet trade pushes the small enclosure thing for two main reasons. One, is breeders, for a breeder space is prime, smaller cages reduce overhead. Info trickles down from there.
Two is the pet sales. Pet stores have the same issues with space and overhead as breeders but on top of that It is easier to sell a pet that will have a smaller footprint in your home and a cheaper setup than it is to sell something that will require more money and space. Overhead in your home. What is the one question you hear over and over again when people come in to pet stores? "What size cage can it be in?" It is a major factor in the hobby.
(Maybe it is just one main reason)

Ask any prisoner, a little bit of daily yard time does not help them forget how small their cell is.

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Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Yes, at minimum. Mine now is just over 3 feet. And he is in a 4x2 tank. The hog is in a 4'x16" tank. I will be finished moving next weekend and will be building a 8x4x4' to divide into two 4x4x4 cubes for both my hog and bp. I also keep them in bioactive enclosures as i find doing this plus keeping a regulalrly timed sunrise/sunset brings out more natural behavior than i have previously had.
And yes, i realize that snakes have different habits and behaviors than humans. The point of what i was saying is that in a cramped cage without sufficient or even new mental stimuli from time to time your snake will get bored. Just like any creature.
Yes, but in the wild do you think a bp comes out once a week for 15 mins to get fed or does it have to come out sometimes night after night waiting to ambush something, Or find water or escape predation. Also they like their hides to be cramped, not their environments.
I also realize we are not world creators and dont have entire continents or planets to work with. But, since we did choose to take responsibility for an exotic animal it is not unreasonable to think that providing something as close to their home as we are able is within that scope of responsibility. As long as you provide the proper environment a bp would feel comfortable in an entire stadium. They live in the expansive outdoors in the wild and feel just fine about it.
The pet trade pushes the small enclosure thing for two main reasons. One, is breeders, for a breeder space is prime, smaller cages reduce overhead. Info trickles down from there.
Two is the pet sales. Pet stores have the same issues with space and overhead as breeders but on top of that It is easier to sell a pet that will have a smaller footprint in your home and a cheaper setup than it is to sell something that will require more money and space. Overhead in your home. What is the one question you hear over and over again when people come in to pet stores? "What size cage can it be in?" It is a major factor in the hobby.
(Maybe it is just one main reason)

Ask any prisoner, a little bit of daily yard time does not help them forget how small their cell is.

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You are attempting to assign human wants and needs to a snake. This is a mistake. Their brains are different than yours. Almost everything about them is different. Study, experiment, study some more. At that point an informed opinion can be formulated. I am only knowledgeable about two snake species and will only comment on those, however not a single snake has very much in common with a human.

I am assigning no such thing. Those are all the needs of the animal. Now can you point out where i have assigned human needs?

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Snakes need mental stimuli

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Define and quantify please.

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Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

in a small cage

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What is the magic formula?

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Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

you are the one attempting to assign human needs

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Not really. I personally will only keep animals where my needs and theirs do not collide.

What experiences are you applying to your assessments?

Good discussion if you can provide me with data I do not have. Not everything I have read has proved out to be true. Have you ever done experiments where you have kept animals in natural settings vs clinical ones and determined if it affected eating habits, growth rates, longevity, general health, or mental state?