So I have decieded not to breed. Food for thought.

As long as you took everything into account, you made a proper decision. I for one may try my hand in breeding when i have MUCH more experience (like in 7+ years), but who even knows where i'll be at that point. I want to do it for the experience, but only once i know im ready, financially and mentally, to take such an aspect. Dont think ill plan on making any money with it, either. May keep most of the babies if I do it with high end morphs.

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For me it's a balance of cost, time, and almost an ethical consideration. I see breeding as the pinnacle of successful captive husbandry, so a successful brood would let me know that I'm taking care of my animals right. But there also is (or should be) more to deciding to breed than just "can I do it?" I probably could have thrown two of our cresties together this year and produced viable eggs, but where would I keep the babies? Could I afford to set up enclosures for all of them? If I produce random low-quality offspring with unknown genetics, how am I going to find them quality homes? Can I afford to keep all of the potential babies if I can't successfully find them homes? With over-saturated critters like BPs and crested geckos I think there needs to be a further consideration than just can it be done. The market is already over-saturated with normal-type animals. Does an amateur hobbyist/novice breeder really need to add more?

So I may try my hand at breeding in the future, but I only want to do it when I can make a positive contribution to the hobby. I don't want to throw middling-quality animals into a saturated market just because I can.

I think it is really all about priorities and ability to provide for the animals properly (time, money, space, etc.).

In my case, I do plan to one day breed and am growing out a couple project females for that intended purpose. That said, I'm in no hurry and plan to house and treat them as pets. If I do ever find that perfect male and time / finances allow, I will breed, but won't plan on making loads of cash from it and will also plan on keeping / providing for all the offspring until I sell them.

I think when you consider breeding, you have to know going in that making money will not be guaranteed and that you may even loose money. That said, you have to really enjoy the animals you intend to breed, enough so that you wouldn't mind housing / keeping the offspring.

All of the comments so far about the market are also true. I think you really need to consider what the market is for a certain species or even morph and how easily you would be able to place them. I too have geckos, cresteds, gargs, and a leachie. Of the three, only the leachies have a strong market, and are hard to come by, so I would only ever consider breeding my leachie.

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Originally Posted by Nellasaur

So I may try my hand at breeding in the future, but I only want to do it when I can make a positive contribution to the hobby. I don't want to throw middling-quality animals into a saturated market just because I can.

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Please also keep in mind % chance for successful desired outcome and pair accordingly to raise % of success and keep in mind that life in general is random and be prepared for the random outcome. This was a key factor in my decision to not to breed. Sure I would love to breed Bob my Banana, jigsaw, granite ball python to something with Surge or Spark to enhance the pattern. Should I? After looking at the chance for success I realized it might take sever years to get the desired outcome if ever. Bob is a wonderful animal. Great temper, socialish, and healthy. Would the world be better for having the new animal in it? Not likely. All the offspring would be lovely but would have to rehome/house them all till desired result achieved? I will buy other peoples success from time to time and be happy to have them.

Another thing that I consider is my age. I am 42. In 20 years will be 62. 30 years be 72. There is a real chance that adding a new animal after that would have to be legacyed to someone who knows how to care for them. This thought make me think about revising my will to include rehoming my animals and their care after I am gone. No I am not "over the hill" but is something that I think gets over looked from time to time. Is one reason I don't own a tortoise that will outlive me 3-4 generations. Is not fair to the animal.

EDIT: I don't have a problem with breeders and hope that this doesn't offend anyone who does. I respect your decision. This is my decision for me.

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Originally Posted by Jaust

Most people wouldn't even have this thought process with dogs/cats. You never have to justify why you wouldn't breed an animal. I think more folks should have to justify why they're choosing to breed animals.....

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Totally agree! I'm happy to see a thread like this, as I think many herp owners (especially new owners) become enamored with the prospects of breeding
their pets when they keep reading all about others breeding their animals on forums such as this. It's far more "contagious" than it ought to be and it's a
good thing to highlight the downsides of breeding every so often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Totally agree! I'm happy to see a thread like this, as I think many herp owners (especially new owners) become enamored with the prospects of breeding
their pets when they keep reading all about others breeding their animals on forums such as this. It's far more "contagious" than it ought to be and it's a
good thing to highlight the downsides of breeding every so often.

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This is why I created this thread. I could have easily kept the decision to myself. Would like some breeders to chime in on their thoughts as well. I know breeding can be rewarding.

I've never had much desire to breed. I see how most people keep their animals and for how long, that's a big deciding factor as snakes are very long lived and can have large clutches, ethics, I'm not going to sell to anyone I wouldn't trust with my own snakes, it's a pretty short list. The second reason is hassle/expense vs simply buying what I want. Buying all the cages and equipment and snakes to eventually reach my goal in 5-10 years if all goes well and dealing with everything that goes into breeding and selling, idk seems like a ton of stuff I don't want to do at all. Someone else is already doing it so why not let them? I've never been much of a diy'er type though. I got all my snakes by 30 for the same reason as you Sky and it's also why I don't have turtles although I love them. I worry too much lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

So after doing much research and looking at numerous animals across several species a few things comes to mind.

1) All my animals are pets. This means that I take them out and spend time with them almost daily. If I start breeding then the time I have to care for each animal is shortened.

2) Housing quality and cost. The more animals I have, the less room and money I have to put towards making larger, quality enclosures for my animals. I have plans to build much larger more natural enclosures for Rainbow and Monty (housed separately). They need room to exercise and roam about to stay healthy and happy. I want to create more natural enclosures for my Ball pythons and RTB as well. I want to provide a quality of life for them.

3) Need for breeding? With all that is available and being breed, I can find almost anything that I desire morph wise. So many people are already doing it. I don't need to sell them to pay for the ones I already have. What if they don't sell (unintentional collection growth)?

4) Cost of feeding. Can I afford it? Yes but it does go up.

So Here is the question. For those who don't breed, why did you choose not to?

The future is not written and I might one day change my mind.

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Its not all black and white, either ;)
There is or could be a lot in between..

All my animals are pets, yet, I have bred them (once) and plan on breeding again. It didn't change a thing about "quality time" since I only keep a small number of animals. There is a difference between breeding large scale for profit, or small scale as a hobby/passion. EITHER one can be done right, or wrong. So can pet ownership without breeding.


Housing and other costs are once again not a consideration. I keep my animals the same way, either way. I have kept Ball Pythons in all kinds of enclosures over the years, closely observed and very much loved. I find Ball Pythons doing exceptionally well in a good rack system and prefer to keep this species that way. I have and still would keep them this way even if not breeding. I DO have the room for big cages and I DO have the finances. I leave them in their rack system because I feel they benefit from it. The "anthropomorphism thread" in the general herp forum is a good read. I do have one display cage for a large male, but that setup is more for "MY" benefit, as I enjoy looking at it. I have no problem with people keeping BP in large elaborate setups as long as the basic needs are met. Long story short, housing is not what would keep me from breeding, as I keep a small collection.

There is no need for breeding. We say this now, but without the breeding that has been done, we would not have the animals we do. And most certainly not at those prices. I still remember when all you could get pretty much were WC BP or, if lucky, Captive born in Africa and then imported. Keeping BP's was a lot more challenging. Will the market suffer without the smaller breeders? Probably not, not at this point. Lots of people are fly-by's, they get into it for "profit" and quickly find out there is no quick or big money to be made easily.

Cost of feeding is a consideration. Again, if you want to go large, the cost goes up. That is why most large scale breeders breed their own rodents. More mess, more work, but again, if you do it right, they pay for themselves. Like with everything else, it can be done right, or wrong. Small scale breeders, hobbyist or people doing this out of a passion usually do not have a much larger cost. You usually find a good feeder source or buy frozen in bulk.


You wanted views from different sources, so here is mine, from a (very) small hobbyist breeder.

While there was some additional work and cost (one time cost of incubator, etc) the payback was immense. I'm not talking about money. All my babies were placed either free or low price. I was able to be picky about where they went. But the best part ??? To this day, months after placing the last one, I still hear from the former owners. I didn't require that from them, they do it on their own. I have had 4 of the new owners ask me within the last 2 weeks if I have more/new babies. They are THRILLED with their babies, love them, want more. I had a couple people inquire because they know the person owning my babies and they love those snakes.

I get pictures of them growing, and I can see the happiness they bring their new owners.

That is a great feeling.


The reason you go into breeding makes a big difference. Is it "just a job" ? Profit ?
Is it a passion?
Are the animals priority #1 ?

Even though I'm very small time, there are some that have been breeding on a larger scale and for years and still the animals are the priority, the people do it out of passion. Just look at Deborah or others in this forum.

What they do is provide happiness for so many people.

Breeding doesn't always equal less care or attention, esp. if you breed animals that would PREFER to be left alone rather than handled frequently or for large amount of times.

Whether I will breed again, or not, I love my animals and I will take care of them the same way.

For anyone thinking about breeding, take your time, do it right. Most of all, do it out of the love for this hobby and the animals. Breed what you LIKE. What you want to see in your house and hands. Don't think about market, profit and what will sell or not.

I love Desert Ghosts, so that is what I have and possibly will breed. I don't care if they loose "hype" or how much they will sell for. It is what I love.

:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Its not all black and white, either ;)
There is or could be a lot in between..

All my animals are pets, yet, I have bred them (once) and plan on breeding again. It didn't change a thing about "quality time" since I only keep a small number of animals. There is a difference between breeding large scale for profit, or small scale as a hobby/passion. EITHER one can be done right, or wrong. So can pet ownership without breeding.


Housing and other costs are once again not a consideration. I keep my animals the same way, either way. I have kept Ball Pythons in all kinds of enclosures over the years, closely observed and very much loved. I find Ball Pythons doing exceptionally well in a good rack system and prefer to keep this species that way. I have and still would keep them this way even if not breeding. I DO have the room for big cages and I DO have the finances. I leave them in their rack system because I feel they benefit from it. The "anthropomorphism thread" in the general herp forum is a good read. I do have one display cage for a large male, but that setup is more for "MY" benefit, as I enjoy looking at it. I have no problem with people keeping BP in large elaborate setups as long as the basic needs are met. Long story short, housing is not what would keep me from breeding, as I keep a small collection.

There is no need for breeding. We say this now, but without the breeding that has been done, we would not have the animals we do. And most certainly not at those prices. I still remember when all you could get pretty much were WC BP or, if lucky, Captive born in Africa and then imported. Keeping BP's was a lot more challenging. Will the market suffer without the smaller breeders? Probably not, not at this point. Lots of people are fly-by's, they get into it for "profit" and quickly find out there is no quick or big money to be made easily.

Cost of feeding is a consideration. Again, if you want to go large, the cost goes up. That is why most large scale breeders breed their own rodents. More mess, more work, but again, if you do it right, they pay for themselves. Like with everything else, it can be done right, or wrong. Small scale breeders, hobbyist or people doing this out of a passion usually do not have a much larger cost. You usually find a good feeder source or buy frozen in bulk.


You wanted views from different sources, so here is mine, from a (very) small hobbyist breeder.

While there was some additional work and cost (one time cost of incubator, etc) the payback was immense. I'm not talking about money. All my babies were placed either free or low price. I was able to be picky about where they went. But the best part ??? To this day, months after placing the last one, I still hear from the former owners. I didn't require that from them, they do it on their own. I have had 4 of the new owners ask me within the last 2 weeks if I have more/new babies. They are THRILLED with their babies, love them, want more. I had a couple people inquire because they know the person owning my babies and they love those snakes.

I get pictures of them growing, and I can see the happiness they bring their new owners.

That is a great feeling.


The reason you go into breeding makes a big difference. Is it "just a job" ? Profit ?
Is it a passion?
Are the animals priority #1 ?

Even though I'm very small time, there are some that have been breeding on a larger scale and for years and still the animals are the priority, the people do it out of passion. Just look at Deborah or others in this forum.

What they do is provide happiness for so many people.

Breeding doesn't always equal less care or attention, esp. if you breed animals that would PREFER to be left alone rather than handled frequently or for large amount of times.

Whether I will breed again, or not, I love my animals and I will take care of them the same way.

For anyone thinking about breeding, take your time, do it right. Most of all, do it out of the love for this hobby and the animals. Breed what you LIKE. What you want to see in your house and hands. Don't think about market, profit and what will sell or not.

I love Desert Ghosts, so that is what I have and possibly will breed. I don't care if they loose "hype" or how much they will sell for. It is what I love.

:)

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If I ever do breed I would have the same attitude about it as you do. Thanks for responding.

Couple of reasons...

This picture of of my "problem child" hatchling. The one that just did NOT want to eat, despite every trick tried, despite eventual assist feeding.
My most challenging one. The one I started thinking just won't make it. But...it did. And once I got this one eating well, I placed her for free, with full disclosure, but knowing that once they eat well, they are just like any other BP. But to me it didn't feel right selling her.

Her owner ADORES her. Loves her to pieces. Lets me know every time she eats, LOL. They couldn't have afforded a nice morph, but they can afford to take care of her well. And look at her now..

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...43760640_n.jpg


And another one, the owner of this one keeps asking me if I have more, they love her dearly and proudly show her off to all friends and family. The friends of this owner have also asked me if I have any more..

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens.../image223.jpeg


http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/image41.jpeg


There are a couple of people that have texted me the updates and sadly I forgot to save the pictures they texted. Pictures of healthy, happy babies and proud owners.



I know it doesn't and won't always go well. But many times it does and will. For those it is worth it to me. I'm not saying I'm better then anyone else or that everyone should do this for fun (not profit) only. There is nothing wrong making some money in exchange for all the time, love and effort.

What is important is that it is done right, with highest priority to the animals well being. The larger the operation, the more time and effort it takes to do it right. Some people can do it, others fail. Some fail even when done "small scale". Some can't even keep them well as "pets only".


It CAN be highly rewarding, though, but a lot of thought and planning should go into it, so for that I commend you on your decision. To many jump into this , some for the wrong reasons and quickly become overwhelmed and the care of the animals suffers..