New ball python over a year old and only 166 grams!

Noone will pay more because a year old snake is 600 gr vs 300 gr. (example)

Not going to happen. Most people know there is WAY MORE then size to what matters in breeding. You still have to let them reach a certain age.

Not everything can be rushed and pushed to turn a profit faster.

What drives the price in morphs is not so much the weight , but the AGE. If you have a animal that is 2 or 3 years old and breed able (meaning large enough) that makes a difference.

If you have an animal that will be ready in one year, rather then two years, that makes a difference.

You can grow a BP to breedable age in 2 to 3 years, even at a slower pace. I see absolutely NO good in pushing an animal to reach that size in one year. If anything, you get an animal that will slugg out due to being fat or to immature (immature, despite size)

I would never, ever choose a breeder that changes their prices based on how big they grow their babies in a short amount of time. I expect to pay more for a proven female or one that will be ready (age + size) in a short time, but with hatchlings and yearlings (and breeders) there are far more important things I look for. Reputation, healthy animals that do well, honesty, etc..

But that is just me.

And we can have different opinions, nothing wrong with that :)

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Originally Posted by zina10

Noone will pay more because a year old snake is 600 gr vs 300 gr. (example)

Not going to happen. Most people know there is WAY MORE then size to what matters in breeding. You still have to let them reach a certain age.

Not everything can be rushed and pushed to turn a profit faster.

What drives the price in morphs is not so much the weight , but the AGE. If you have a animal that is 2 or 3 years old and breed able (meaning large enough) that makes a difference.

If you have an animal that will be ready in one year, rather then two years, that makes a difference.

You can grow a BP to breedable age in 2 to 3 years, even at a slower pace. I see absolutely NO good in pushing an animal to reach that size in one year. If anything, you get an animal that will slugg out due to being fat or to immature (immature, despite size)

I would never, ever choose a breeder that changes their prices based on how big they grow their babies in a short amount of time. I expect to pay more for a proven female or one that will be ready (age + size) in a short time, but with hatchlings and yearlings (and breeders) there are far more important things I look for. Reputation, healthy animals that do well, honesty, etc..

But that is just me.

And we can have different opinions, nothing wrong with that :)

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I agree with almost everything you said with the following disclaimers.

First a year old snake should not be at the weight of the one we are talking about in my experience that weight is insane.

I do not intentionally grow my animals fast especially those that that are going out the door. I am intentionally breeding for size and a willingness to eat. My babies are fed by the normal feeding chart. Even the few animals that I have produced that are not pigs are going to break that weight by miles. I have a male that I have refused to sell because I don't want to inflict his eating issues on anyone. He eats a rat pup on average one to two times a month. He was still around 500 grams at a year.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I have a male that I have refused to sell because I don't want to inflict his eating issues on anyone. He eats a rat pup on average one to two times a month. He was still around 500 grams at a year.

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and I have a male spider and female normal that eat when they want and have yet to switch to rat pups, they will only eat small mice. ;)
Both at a year old this month and right at 200 gram.

There is no reason or need to push growth, I was ignorant in the beginning too.
Age means far more than weight and you cant rush that BUT some people only see dollar signs...............

Well this year old ball python at 166 grams is literally not much bigger around than a week old rat pup, if you would have asked me how old it was I would have said about a month old. It's one thing to over feed, still another to not feed at all to make a buck, that's just wrong.

:rolleye2:

And size does matter for pricing, especially for females. Check out this big ol pied girl, 2460 grams, sold for $1,650. (It actually was sold yesterday)

https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/78962

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

And size does matter for pricing, especially for females. Check out this big ol pied girl, 2460 grams, sold for $1,650. (It actually was sold yesterday)

https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/78962

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Guess you forgot to read all the numbers......
DOB 2007!! Someone put TEN (10) years of time into that animal. That is not someone trying to make a buck with a quick flip.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Noone will pay more because a year old snake is 600 gr vs 300 gr. (example)

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But if a year old snake is 600 grams versus 166 grams I'm going to assume that the smaller snake is a poor feeder, or it has parasites, or it has something else wrong with it, and I will not buy it even if it is cheaper.

I've heard of two breeders who maintenance feed to the extent described by the OP and I will not do business with either of them.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

Lots of reasons for a smaller size baby, as long as the body structure is good, should grow to a normal size.
Maybe it was a slow starter, maybe only took live, maybe never got switched to rats.

My first BP was under 30 grams when i got her, super picky eater, took forever to get established. Was barely 23 grams after she took her first meal with me. I don't weight my snakes much back then but I'd guess she was well under 200 grams by the time she was a year. Doing great now though.

Current yearlings I've been raising up and feeding every 7-10 days are in the 300-400 gram range.

I'm amazed by all you guys that have these giant yearlings, seems totally crazy to me (but then again I would never feed any species of snake more often than every 7 days).

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Preach it sistah!! I have been talking to a few breeders on FB about the exact thing. It seems the new norm now is to see how fast and big you can grow a snake. I see so many sausages on FB. I partially blame it on some breeders as it seems now to make any cash really, you need to jump on the newest morph, grow to breeding size asap, breed asap and then sell babies asap. And once the rest of the crowd catches up, you dump that morph and move on to the next big one and rinse and repeat.

I actually had a gal on FB ask if her boa was underfeed and abnormally small since all the snakes she shes on FB are like 4' yearlings eating large rats lol. I as well as a few other people told her her boa actually looked in awesome shape and looked well taken care of. So sad that new people are misled by such bad info :(

Interesting posts to read. I have fed snakes for many years and feed on a schedule of 7 days, 6 days, 14 days, etc. I change it up constantly. I have never power fed and never even knew the meaning until the last few years. Today I have learned a new term..."maintenance feeding". I have to admit it is a pretty clever term for starvation. If ball pythons grew at that rate (166 grams per year) in the wild they would be extinct. I feed my snakes what I believe to be a very healthy diet on a healthy schedule. I guess if people quit their day job to try and strike it rich breeding snakes and starving them in the process, that's up to them. They will do quite well turning a profit since water can be found for free for a snake and a snake breathing air is also free. Maintenance feeding........SMH. I'm guessing I will soon find the breeders with a guilty conscious after I post this and I don't need to hear "problem feeder". That is code for "I just didn't feed them" because I just quit my day job.

What the hell is maintainance fed mean? Sounds like a box store (which I don't even do):)

I think a distinction needs to be made!!

If there is a breeder that routinely and purposefully STARVES snakes or in any other form neglects them, sends out unhealthy snakes, lies, is dishonest, etc etc etc, then there is a problem. Even one single one of those things is a problem.

Has that been determined though ? Are all of the snakes from this breeder underweight, starved, sickly and neglected animals ?

Or is this particular hatchling one that didn't grow as fast , which there can be many reasons for, and those reasons don't have to be starving it, neglecting it, abusing it?

There are MANY terrible breeders out there. One only has to read the Fauna classifieds or Facebook FBI (feedback). The stories will make ones hair stand straight up.

I'm pretty sure I know which breeder is being discussed. ALL of my Desert Ghost animals have come from him. And I have no problem at all stating this. I have shared pictures and stories of all of my animals and have yet to hear that they look bad. I know for a fact they are amazing. Were they HUGE for their age ? Nope. Were they underweight or starved ? Nope. They are healthy, beautiful animals that are doing very well and are growing at a healthy rate, nothing stunted here.

Now, one could say I'm only speaking in that breeders defense because my animals are from there. But ...that is not my agenda. I don't have an agenda. I have several breeders I have bought from and that I trust and I am VERY VERY picky. I do my research. I have researched from years back. Spoken to other buyers. I have my own experience to fall back on. I don't owe that or any breeder anything, nor do I have undying loyalty to any one of them.

166 gr. IS small !!! However, the breeder HAD the size on the webpage. One has to take the time and ask the questions. There may be a reason it grew slower.

I'm also not saying that a breeder can't do something wrong to one person just because they've been good to others. I'm saying that determining whether a breeder is good or bad should depend on a whole lot more then one animal that is small for its size, esp. when that doesn't seem to be a common problem. People talk about bad experiences. Even if they only think they have been wronged. You find out real quick if someone does something wrong. This breeder has had a stellar reputation for well bred, nice and healthy animals and for not screwing people over. Would someone risk that by starving their animals knowing that buyers will talk about that? Maybe so, but doubtful.

Maintenance feeding is NOT starving. Its just an expression. All it means is that they are not trying to hurry the snake along. And no way would a snake in the wild grow at a rate then the ones in our homes do. There is a difference to feeding one to grow nice and slow and starving one. They look quite different from one another.

Power feeding is also an expression. People thought it meant to "force" the snake to eat more then it wants by "chain feeding". What it really means is to keep the snake growing at a incredible speed. It works with Ball Pythons, with Boas you will have them regurge and fail. Ball Pythons will grow quickly, but like Deb pointed out, it has been established through necropsies just how damaging it can be.

I'm not coming to the defense of THIS breeder. I'm saying to not throw anyone into a pot based on a expression and one small animal.

There are feedback pages. If someone feels wronged, they can certainly post on there. They can also question whether other people had a problem. At least in that way the breeder can present their side and other buyers can relate with their own experience. Who knows, maybe a pattern emerges in one way or another.


edited to say: Just want to point out one more time that maintenance feeding is not something that ends up with 166 gr. yearlings. All mine were bigger at that age. Obviously there was something else going on. A very small hatchling, slow to start, picky about particular food items, etc. Some take longer and then take off. This should have been discussed before the sale, that is for sure. Perhaps something can be worked out about returning the animal if there is dissatisfaction?