A note on ball python cage sizes - lessons from Germany

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Originally Posted by Dumdum333

people on this site are so prickly if you question them even a little bit 😂😂😂

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No, I do not think so. Many of us like to have intelligent discussions. Many of the firm replies here are directed at beginners. The fear when talking about various subjects is that a beginner will try things and quickly get in over their heads and then the animal ends up suffering because the owner does not realize there is a problem. Many of the things I do, I would not recommend to a beginner. Even some people that have been around the animals for long periods of time have problems reading them. In my home there are often times where I will bring up an important behavioral change that was not noticed by anyone else. Not everyone is capable of safe experimentation. Those that are generally realize very quickly why we reply to things the way we do here. They also realize when and when not to step outside guidelines.

Every species has its own requirements to thrive. When pets are purchased one has to make sure that the pet's requirements can be willingly met by the owner. I like fat lazy snakes. They are easy for me to provide for and keep in numbers. I have many times thought about keeping bloods. Another fat lazy animal, but their temperature requirements are different than balls and I am unwilling to change up my reptile room to accommodate them. If I was a hot keeper, I would probably focus on gaboons, another animal that does not move much. So with balls, it is pretty cut and dried to me. They meet my needs, I meet theirs. Someday, maybe this year after I sell off this years clutches, I am going to set up a "natural" environment for a male and female ball in order to observe how they react with a simulated natural cycle. This is one of those things I would never advise a beginner to do. They could be down to a single snake in short order or end up with two snakes going off food and getting sick.

I have kept a few other species of reptile over the years. Corn snakes being the easiest. The most elaborate being my adult iguana setups. Room sized cages for these guys with plenty of stuff to keep them busy.

Currently there is a bearded dragon in my house. He is not kept in a tub. He has a relatively large terrarium with stuff to dig and stuff to climb on. He appears to enjoy interaction. This is not an animal I would keep in a confined environment, but I only have one so my sample size is a little small.

I also have a Russian tortoise that my daughter just had to have. I know better but my daughter is hard to argue with (any father with a little girl knows what I mean). I honestly don't believe these things should be kept as pets. I have yet to make this animal "happy" even though I have had it going on five years and it is very healthy.

Short story is, I know I don't know everything. I always like new data and am willing to adjust accordingly. My next experiment is going to be feeding males birds. I just ordered some frozen quail. Many males in the wild according to one study were found to be eating birds, so I'm going to try it. Maybe, it will stimulate some of my males into eating more often. Maybe not.

Once I have my "natural" enclosure up, I am going to be doing what I am calling the "Zinc" experiment. I am going to see if I can the animals to climb to get a bird.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Every species has its own requirements to thrive. When pets are purchased one has to make sure that the pet's requirements can be willingly met by the owner. I like fat lazy snakes. They are easy for me to provide for and keep in numbers. I have many times thought about keeping bloods. Another fat lazy animal, but their temperature requirements are different than balls and I am unwilling to change up my reptile room to accommodate them. If I was a hot keeper, I would probably focus on gaboons, another animal that does not move much. So with balls, it is pretty cut and dried to me. They meet my needs, I meet theirs. Someday, maybe this year after I sell off this years clutches, I am going to set up a "natural" environment for a male and female ball in order to observe how they react with a simulated natural cycle. This is one of those things I would never advise a beginner to do. They could be down to a single snake in short order or end up with two snakes going off food and getting sick.

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I see the merit in this approach. Pragmatism coupled with lower cost is likely to see easier adoption of the proposed methods than an endeavor which is more costly in terms of money and space. The conventional tub/UTH/thermostat method is also arguably the easiest to implement. It would be interesting to have some sort of comparison of relatively inexperienced keepers using tubs/racks vs. larger plastic enclosures and their success rates. While there is a train of thought that reptiles adapt poorly to changing enclosures, I suspect that there is something to be said for what animals are raised in. In a similar vein to the previous poster, a ball python raised in a 4' x 2' enclosure may find that to be more desirable than a tub and react poorly when switched to a tub and vice versa. I would not consider glass enclosures to be of interest in such an experiment however. I am generally of the opinion that unless heavily modified to feel more "enclosed", glass terrariums are a poor choice (not to to mention their poor insulative properties).

In regards to your "natural" setup, it would be an interesting experiment. I have never personally housed two ball pythons together, but with some care, I suspect it could be done. Contact with conspecifics generally goes one of two ways: (1) one animal is bullied to the point of stress, or (2) enrichment is provided with a happy balance established. As a point of interest, there was a study done in juvenile chameleons where young were raised alone and in small groups. The animal raised in small groups had a high prevalence of "bold" behavior and more vibrant coloration. The authors suggested that a form of healthy competition was present in the group settings and this allowed the young chameleons to grow stronger and more confident.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Short story is, I know I don't know everything. I always like new data and am willing to adjust accordingly. My next experiment is going to be feeding males birds. I just ordered some frozen quail. Many males in the wild according to one study were found to be eating birds, so I'm going to try it. Maybe, it will stimulate some of my males into eating more often. Maybe not.

Once I have my "natural" enclosure up, I am going to be doing what I am calling the "Zinc" experiment. I am going to see if I can the animals to climb to get a bird.

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I suspect your experiment in this regard to be a success. From what I have read, ball pythons are very opportunistic hunters and while rodents comprise the majority of their diet, wild ball pythons have been documented to consume anything from birds to fish to other reptiles and amphibians. However, captive specimens that have no been exposed to such prey items may have to have a few scented meals before recognizing it as prey, but would be willing to hunt down anything they come to recognize as a food item. I believe I also read a report that young ball pythons had been found and caught in limbs of smaller plants and lower tree branches suggesting that while they may be primarily terrestrial, they do climb.

In a study of captive raised indigo snakes, observers concluded that diet diversity almost promoted growth and vigor among growing snakes. The diet does not have to be hugely varied for observable effect. The mention that "three genera of prey items yield optimum growth rates". I have also heard it said that a more natural environment improves feeding response in ball pythons and other snake species, but I have not seen any particularly convincing studies to back up this claim. It is possible that a more natural or cluttered environment triggers exploratory behavior which may correlate to hunting behavior and thus improve appetite, but at this point in my "reptile career" this is mainly conjecture.

I am by no means as experienced as many of the ball python owners on this forum who can actually discuss this topic with years of experience to look back on. I'd still like to address this topic and give my opinion.
My Bumblebee ball python has been living with me for just about a month now but I did A LOT of research before I purchased him from a local breeder. When I did my research I visited many different websites from a few different countries and I noticed that the standards are different in each country.

What Regius_49 explained in his text is actually quite interesting and it's true. The minimum tank size for an adult ball python in Germany is considered to be 120x60x60 (in cm) while it is 90x45x45 (in cm) in the US. And that's not all.
The rule Regius_49 talked about is not obligatory in Germany but it is actually a law in other countries in Europe (at least that's what I read somewhere.)
In Sweden it is considered animal cruelty to feed living mice/rats to your snake (I am pretty sure it is actually considered a crime and you can get into serious trouble for it but don't take my word for it) and in Germany the rack systems are highly controversial. Some breeders have been sued because of it. Do you notice the different ideals?
If any of you speak another language then go ahead and do some research. You'll be surprised how different the American standards are from the European ones (I just started learning some Asian languages and so I cannot say anything about their standards).
I cannot answer the question which one is better but I would not jump to conclusions. To say the American or the European way is the better one would be foolish since both of them seem to work and have their pros and cons.
I personally prefer the rule Regius_49 presented but I think people should stay openminded and try to understand where the other one is coming from. I mean this rule has been working for many people so it cannot be so far from some kind of truth.

Interesting points.

I've been keeping for 5 years now and I've always followed the ruler of enclosure length +width (footprint) should be equal to or greater than the length of the snake. I tend to offer larger when given the opportunity. I keep several species (Kenyan sand boas, rainbow boas, carpets, ball pythons, and BCI/BCA) as well as some gecko species (gargoyles, leachie, cresteds), and a blue tongue skink.

I've found that some species / animals prefer larger enclosures and use them to their full extent...my boas and skink in particular, whereas, I have some animals that stress and do poorly in larger caging...One of my female BPs and also a couple of my geckos loose weight when housed in larger quarters.

Right now, I have only 3 BPs, all females, and they are housed in the standard CB70 rack. For two of the females, I feel this is a good fit, as they stay confined in their hides inside the rack and seldom move around even at night. For one of my girls though, I think larger caging may be in order, as she stays stretched out and wants to "come out" given the opportunity.... She may be moving up to a 4'x2' AP cage soon. I do think that if a larger rack was available (at lease wider) that I would have preferred to go that route.

I think when dealing with standards, at least for what we recommend to beginners, it is very important that every aspect of the setup can be understood easily... That you can give them almost a "fool-proof" method they can follow and have their temps, humidity, etc. spot on for the snake. It is just easier to do this with a tub setup IMO than a glass tank or enclosure (especially when you start talking taller enclosure and heat gradients).

Before I got my AP caging and rack, I kept most of my snake in stand-alone tubs. My decision was based mainly on what could most easily hold humidity and be securely closed. Now, note that the footprint of the tubs I chose matched the ruler I went by above or larger. I found the tub setups easy to deal with in terms of monitoring temps / humidity and making adjustments and can see why that method is often recommended for beginners.

At the end of the day, I think it is all about doing what best suits the animals...what allows the keeper to maintain ideal heat and humidity, a clean environment, and also provide enough room that the snake can thermoregulate and stretch out a little if they want to. I don't think I need to judge someone based on how they meet those needs, as long as they are being met...

I am going to have to leave this discussion. My political beliefs will give me bias and make my responses unpalatable for some on this forum. I do not care for governments dictating things, especially when those things reach this level of micromanagement. My animals do very well in my racks. It makes zero economic sense for a breeder to treat his or her animals badly. I will leave it at that.