Quick Bioactive Question

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Originally Posted by distaff

This is an older thread, but I'll add my perspective in case the OP gets back to it. I don't have a BP, but I've kept both a king and a corn in planted tanks for over a year. I also keep fish.

I think "bio-active" is a misnomer when it comes to relative large animals in standard size glass enclosures. The term works better for smaller animals like dart frogs, whose waste is so small, that the usual clean up crew of spring tails, pill bugs, earth worms and microbes can break it down efficiently. A snake enclosure will still require cleaning - the piles are too big, and the contaminated area should be removed as soon as the waste is detected.

I know of no critters that will effectively fight snake mites. IIRC, according to Vosjoli (and agree with slither seeker), one must simply prevent their introduction in the first place. I expect the only way to eradicate them would be to entirely dump the tank contents, and start over with the usual miteicide protocol.

I would not liken the planted enclosure exactly to "cycling" a fish tank. You are not so much concerned with the microflora establishing in a planted viv, as you are getting the plants to root securely enough to withstand a heavy BP. I introduced both my slender smaller animals as soon as the transplants were in.

My heat sources are radiant heat panels at the ceiling, and UTH heat pads that are inside the tank, not underneath. This placement is "off label," so to speak, so do so at your own risk. However, I don't see why my t-stat controlled heaters pose any extra danger. they are attached to a underside slab of stryofoam set on top of the substrate for a hide. The snake crawls under the styrofoam and gets back heat. This arrangement does make for an extra cord that has to exit the enclosure in some way, easy if you have an Exo-terra, less easy if you have the standard Zilla screen tops on a tank. We keep a VERY cold house in the winter (sometimes 55F) which is why I run two heat sources when it is could. Summers, I just run the UTH's.

Hope that helps.

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Great reply- So you don't think Isopods AND springtails would breakdown the poop? I thought it would be too much but then read elsewhere that the combo actually does well breaking it down so I'm curious. Hoping the original OP will update. I like your "off" suggestion but one of my BP actually enjoys climbing while the other prefers burrowing so I'm going with overheat lamp. Still trying to figure out low sturdy plants since normally BP tank is 18" height and not willing to spend another few hundred on new tank just to accommodate new plants :)

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Originally Posted by LiveBreatheAdapt

Hoping the original OP will update.

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I am definitely inclined to try the bioactive setup. However, its going to be some time. Originally, I had (still have actually) a 20 gallon long glass tank. I was going to set that up, and that would of been for the juvie bp I will get soon. But, like a dog salivating at the site of a juicy red T-bone steak, I too had that feeling whenever I read about the Animal Plastics T8. So, I ordered the T8 awhile ago and am awaiting delivery. The wife, who still thinks it won't be so bad for me to have a 20 gallon tank with a ball python in it will, well, probably go rabid. But, that's ok. It'll work out with her. :)

With that said, I'll have a divider in the T8 initially, with a bp on one side and probably a MKB on the other. After they get bigger, that T8 in full will house one of them. Meanwhile... the bioactive tank...

While the T8 serves its function as intended, I will probably set up a bioactive glass tank, just without snakes. I'll get everything right (or hope to do so), and just play with the idea. Maybe I'll put something else in there (non-snakes). It'll be an experiment. I know many have said the bioactive isn't for bp's, and I respect that... especially since my experience is, well, not there... I am just learning. I'll play with the bugs going in, the substrate, tough plants, lights (for the plants), heating, etc. Hopefully it'll work.

If not, I'll throw my sons' hermit crabs in there, and call it a day!

Will keep you all posted. And, please, any comments or updates of your own, please post.

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Originally Posted by LiveBreatheAdapt

Great reply- So you don't think Isopods AND springtails would breakdown the poop? I thought it would be too much but then read elsewhere that the combo actually does well breaking it down so I'm curious. Hoping the original OP will update. I like your "off" suggestion but one of my BP actually enjoys climbing while the other prefers burrowing so I'm going with overheat lamp. Still trying to figure out low sturdy plants since normally BP tank is 18" height and not willing to spend another few hundred on new tank just to accommodate new plants :)

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It is not that that they can't break it down eventually, but just how long do you want that dirty pile of poop to sit around while you wait for the bugs to do their thing? I don't think the pillbugs and springtails are a bad idea in a snake encolsure, I just don't think they aren't necessary if the keeper cleans up the waste. I clean waste piles as soon as I find them. Add the detritovores if you like them (and they can take care of any tiny bits that get missed), I didn't simply because I didn't want to spend the money.

English ivy, and potos can probably withstand a BP. I also have a short version of Sanseveria that would work with a low ceiling (the pointy leaves of Sans. can be almost thorny at the tip - be sure to trim them if necessary).

CharlesMTF, I started with some practice plant-only terrariums too. I also experimented with a planted tray that I could insert in the snake enclosure, but also remove if the plantings didn't work out (those first ones didn't - one thing I learned was that the King would just bulldoze under any moss I had growing).

There is another current thread that comes and goes about bio-active. If you haven't come across it, it is worth a read too. The short form is, IMHO, a min. one inch bottom drainage layer is absolutely necessary (gravel, leica, hydroballs, or matalla filter covered with regular fiberglass window screen), and also, spend the money for a quality substrate to plant in. Garden soil and compost are good amendments for the substrate, but should not be a large portion of the substrate. You really need an ABG (Atlantic Botanical Gardens) type of light fluffy mixture. I like NewEnglandHerpetoculture's version. That will probably be the most expensive part of the build.

I would build this with the MBK in mind, not the BP. That said, I know of at least two other members (active recently??) who have BP's in planted enclosures. One person, I can't remember, but IIRC, Snake Judy is the other.

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Originally Posted by LiveBreatheAdapt

Great reply- So you don't think Isopods AND springtails would breakdown the poop? I thought it would be too much but then read elsewhere that the combo actually does well breaking it down so I'm curious. Hoping the original OP will update. I like your "off" suggestion but one of my BP actually enjoys climbing while the other prefers burrowing so I'm going with overheat lamp. Still trying to figure out low sturdy plants since normally BP tank is 18" height and not willing to spend another few hundred on new tank just to accommodate new plants :)

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I can say that I have not removed a dropping from the vivarium of my 5 ft BRB in over a year. yes the droppings are large, but they remain remarkably innocuous and break down to soil. the tank doesn't smell, the plants are growing like wild and the snake is very healthy. it is a relatively large, multi layered environment and the snake does have like 5 different places it likes to hang out (2 hides, below the false bottoms that is consists of pebbles, above the false bottom but below the substrate layer as well as on top of the substrate layer). I have yet to venture into setting up such a vivarium for my BP's but I am curious if something like this will work for them. their humidity requirements and droppings are quite different from my BRB, so I don't know if it can work, with big girthey snakes that produce a lot of waste, it may be a matter of making the enclosure large enough to handle the load, but that may turn out to be unrealistic. I think calling what I'm doing "bio-active" may not be what people are referring to, I've gone all in with grow lights and have some experience with terrariums/vivariums and fish tanks to help me walk the tight rope. Early on the whole thing went anaerobic before I installed a false bottom and I had to start over... I almost gave up but I'm glad I didn't. I suspect that with a full grown BP that a successful eco-dome (for lack of a better term) would have to be maybe twice the size of my current BRB vivarium, which is about 55 gallons, so maybe more like 100 gallons and would need a more extensive grow light to drive the plant mass needed to soak up that much nitrogen and propagate the necessary micro-biome. I'm just not sure if this forum is the right place to get into this too deeply, it seems that some people hold strongly to their prescribed way of doing things and are quick to cut people down if they find something to point out. I realize some folks get pretty freaked out by the idea that you could actually create a relatively contained ecosystem that can handle raw waste. being able to do it in a way that does not endanger the animal comes down to your ability to monitor biological process and know what to look for and it's a bit of a no mans land.

One thing that I know for sure regarding the UTH (which is why I'm glad most agreed overhead heat is ok)- 100% your bottom tank will Crack if utilizing live plants. Why? You must mist the plants daily and the moment water hits the UTH "heated" glass CRACK! I found out when my daughter tipped the water dish and literally only a few drops hit that area and the tank now has a huge Crack. I ended up using aquarium grade silicone to ensure it was safe in case my BP burrows... figured i share my experience. So when i do convert to live i definitely will not be using UTH under the glass. Nice post BTW and appreciate the OP replying to us 👍

not a problem if you place it on a pane of glass and put it on the inside, closer to the surface. I use this for belly heat for our BP's and overhead heat for our red foot tortoise. I am definitely outside anything the manufacturer recommends but it's been working great in one of my tanks for 2.5 years. Zoo Med's seems to be able to handle getting pretty wet.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2/img_8200.jpg

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Originally Posted by LiveBreatheAdapt

One thing that I know for sure regarding the UTH (which is why I'm glad most agreed overhead heat is ok)- 100% your bottom tank will Crack if utilizing live plants. Why? You must mist the plants daily and the moment water hits the UTH "heated" glass CRACK! I found out when my daughter tipped the water dish and literally only a few drops hit that area and the tank now has a huge Crack. I ended up using aquarium grade silicone to ensure it was safe in case my BP burrows... figured i share my experience. So when i do convert to live i definitely will not be using UTH under the glass. Nice post BTW and appreciate the OP replying to us 👍

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All good info, thanks. If I try this, it'll be in a glass tank, as the T8 is definitely not the right enclosure for this. Plenty of glass tanks lying around, so will play with that.

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Originally Posted by Slither Seeker

...droppings are quite different from my BRB...

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Is the BRB poop not as much as a bp? Just curious, have no idea.

I run bio-active substrate for all of my reptiles. My biggest big-active cage is for my Tegu. While there are times that I do spot clean, the majority of the waste is broken down rather quickly by all the little bugs in there. That being said my cage is 8x4x4 with 2ft of dirt in it, so I did have to load it with a ton of worms, springtails, isopods, etc. In addition I throw wood leaves in there and plant grass every year, so there is a lot going on.

I haven't kept either species, but I expect the BRB enclosure would have higher humidity than would be ideal for a BP, and I think that would help break stuff down quickly. My enclosures have just enough moisture to keep the plants going, and while there is compost in the mix, there doesn't seem to be much active composting going on (not like a compost pile or worm bin, anyway). Also, the layers I've used are fairly thin. The leica "false bottom" drainage layer was laid down at 1 1/2 inches, and the growing substrate was originally 3-4 inches, but has since packed down/broken down a bit. (Slither Seeker, I am not trying to cut anyone down if that is how it came across. I just wanted to provide helpful advice based on my own experience. You obviously know what you are doing!)

Smell to me, is the best indicator if spot cleaning is needed. If the viv is stinky, I start searching for the source. If it smells fresh and woodsey, I don't worry about it.

Both of my tanks started with similar materials and plants, but they developed very differently. I think that is part of the fun of them.