RHP questions for cold room and T8

For what it's worth, I think that if you're in an especially cold room or especially if the room temp will vary substantially, you're better off with two separate heat sources controlled independently to get what you want for the hot side and the cold side.

In my case, I don't have A/C in the summer. So the same room that ranges from 55-65 degrees in the winter is more like 75-85 in the summer. There's no way I could set up a single heat source so that it would give me correct temperatures all year round, without constantly repositioning the heat source, the thermostat probe, etc. The requirements are too different between a case where the hot and cold sides are 35 and 25 degrees away from the room temperature respectively, and a case where when they are 10 and zero degrees away. With two independent heat sources, the thermostats take care of it even when the room temperature changes.

I have a T8, and our RHP keeps it nice and toasty. You must use a thermostat!


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Originally Posted by Coluber42

I have a custom PVC cage in a room that can get as low as 55 degrees, and I use an 80-watt RBI panel on the cool side, with a UTH to make a hot spot. The hot spot is on the side without the RHP, with my logic being that in addition to the higher surface temperature, it helps keep the corners from getting quite as cold. I designed a bunch of features of my cage around retaining heat as well as possible, and it is a non-standard size, but in general it is in the same ballpark size-wise as some of the others mentioned in this thread.

The big thing to remember about heating cages in a cold room though is INSULATION, even for PVC. If your RHP is mounted to the ceiling of the cage, a lot of heat is going to be lost through the roof. So especially insulate the top of the cage really well. Also place the entire cage on top of a piece of foam insulation, plywood, etc, especially if you have a UTH underneath. Again, if your cage is sitting on a stand that conducts heat well, such as a metal shelf, more of the heat from your UTH will be escaping into the stand and the room than going into the cage. And adding some amount of insulation to the back and sides doesn't hurt either. It doesn't have to be ugly; I made some insulating panels for mine that look sort of quilt-ish and match the decor in the rest of the room.
And when we're going to be away and the heat is going to be on the "vacation" setting, I put a blanket over the front to cover the sliding doors too. The RHP can still maintain good temps without that, but it helps keep it from having to run quite as high.

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Coulber this is a very interesting idea. Could you post some picture of the insulation? Or make a thread on it. I would find something like this extremely helpful for insulating in MN winters.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...2014.11.11.jpg


In this case, the whol cage is sitting on top of a piece of closed-cell foam (you can't see it, but if you look closely you'll see that it isn't sitting directly on top of the two tables). The side panels are canvas with a couple of layers of fleece sandwiched in between like batting and sewn together at the edges. There are sewn - on pieces of Velcro on the panels, and stick-on Velcro on the sides of the cage. The back, which you can't see, has a similar panel Velcro'd to it, with the addition of another piece of foam sandwiched between the cage and the panel and held in place because the panel is Velcro'd all around. The top piece is the thickest, with more foam encased between the layers of fleece batting. The front overhang helps limit heat loss through the gap between the sliding doors by trapping the warm air at the top.
Since the sides are separate pieces, I can easily open them partway or remove them completely if I need more airflow to control humidity in the warmer months; you can see the ventilation holes on the right side of the photo. There are also sliding PVC panels under the "quilt" ("quilt" in quotes because they aren't actually quilted, but I dunno what else to call them) panels that open and close the vent holes as needed.

The foam I used is really nothing special; it was just stuff I had lying around, same as the other materials. If I were going to buy materials I might use different foam, but I don't think it makes that huge of a difference. Actually the canvas was leftover from making a bunch of seat cushions, so at least it coordinates. :)

The whole thing has a false bottom, which is made from an under-bed storage bin cut down to around 4" in height (that's what determined the dimensions of the footprint), so I can use a UTH that is actually inside the main enclosure so there's less heat loss through the bottom, but the snake can't get at it and it can't be peed on. The RHP is mounted on the underside of an upper platform, which gets it closer to the ground, results in less heat loss through the ceiling, and also makes an additional hot spot above it (and there's an air gap plus some other insulation so the upper platform doesn't get too hot). Actually, the "upstairs" hot spot is only really a hot spot in the winter; in the summer, the RHP doesn't run enough for it to be much warmer than downstairs.
Lastly, the doors are acrylic, not glass, because acrylic retains heat just a bit better.

Sorry for the delayed response everyone, you know how holidays can get! Anyhow, thank you all so much for your replies, this is giving me a much better idea of what to expect and what I should do. I was on the fence about RHPs because of the contradictions I saw, but I think I might go for it when pay period rolls around. I can't thank you all enough for your help!

To the insulation on the top of the cage comments, I have a few blankets up on top that I kept there in hopes of keeping her warmer, I can add cardboard to that as well if you all think that might help hold in heat a little better. That custom cage is incredibly well done, it looks so nice! That front overhang is a good idea, I might have to snag that.

Right now, I have an empty T8 in another room that I can use to test and see how it might do with making a hot spot all on its own and see roughly what to set the thermostat to in order to have it reliably doing what I need without bugging Cinnamon Roll as much. I've been testing things on that one for awhile trying to get it to a good temperature without the portable heater, and hopefully this will be the one to do it.

Thank you all again so very much, this forum is always incredibly helpful! Now I can sleep a little easier tonight with this information.

If you run a 40w you won't raise the ambient temp enough, not without making that hot side get well over 100 for a basking spot.

What I would do is put heat tape on the cool side, set it to 82ish on the probe, so that way by the time it gets through the PVC bottom and substrate it'll be in the high 70's. Then you can do a 40w on the warm side to give that basking spot. Your other option is going with an 80w, which will take up nearly half the cage, however this would be your best bet in raising the ambient temp.

80w = 80 watt panel measures approximately 12.5"x22.5"x1.75"

or

100w = 120 watt panel measures approximately 12.5"x32.5"x1.75"

I was considering an 80 watt or 120 watt to start with, but my main issue was I'm unsure if 80 would be enough and was contemplating going for a 120 to be safe...I'm unsure if that would be overkill, however. I don't mind how much of the cage it takes up, since it's on the roof and super thin, but understandably I'd rather not pay for a 120 if an 80 would be enough. I'll gladly buy it if it's the best option for my situation, though. c:

*Now that I had some sleep I realize what you meant by nearly taking up half the cage importance wise...would there be a proper gradient with an RHP taking up that much space? The 120 would take up much more, so in that regard I wonder if 80 watt is the better choice to keep a gradient and raise temps. o:

(Sorry for double post, I'd edit but it says it timed out.)

Chiming in not hijacking..I also live in upstate NY and my upstares rooms are very cool at night. Just got off the phone with Bob at Pro. Has anyone tried or heard of anyone using the pro panel or another Radiant Heat sources underneath a set up like the UTH's? Bob said it could work & his only argument is his own opinion about using it like their natural envirment and heated from above like the sun does.
Im thinking of trying it without the snakes in there and checking temps for a couple days to see how that setup would work. I understand the whole point is to use them above but I find it a pain because my snakes soend hours crawling limbs and would be able to touch the heat panel on the "roof"....
My enclosures are 48"x13"x13" and Bob recommends the P-3 or P-12 running a T-stat. Shipped with tax is quoted under $150 for the P12 and $130 for p-3. Seems like a no brainer with all the positive things I've heard about the quality of his products.
Any opinions of info?

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Originally Posted by AlbinoBull

*Now that I had some sleep I realize what you meant by nearly taking up half the cage importance wise...would there be a proper gradient with an RHP taking up that much space? The 120 would take up much more, so in that regard I wonder if 80 watt is the better choice to keep a gradient and raise temps. o:

(Sorry for double post, I'd edit but it says it timed out.)

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If you're using a RHP plus a UTH or heat tape, you could theoretically arrange things any of the following ways:
1. RHP on cool side for overall ambient temperature, UTH makes hot spot on the side that doesn't have the RHP. This is probably the best route if the RHP is larger compared to the size of the cage, because it lets the RHP run at a lower temperature/power to just maintain even overall temps; the UTH makes the hot spot and in doing so ensures that the corners farthest from the RHP don't get too cold, which could otherwise result in condensation.
2. RHP on the warm side, UTH just supplements the temperature on the cool side. This one is probably the hardest to get right because the cool side would have a warmer surface temperature than its air temperature (and would probably be warmer inside hides than outside, too). But it could help if whatever the cage is sitting on is a major heat sink. Although if that's the case, you should insulate the bottom instead. This way is probably better for a large UTH and a smaller RHP.
3. Both RHP and UTH on the warm side, cool side ambient just comes from spill-over heat. This one will probably give you a way bigger differential between the warm side and the cool side than you want, unless the room temperature is relatively high - in which case, you probably don't need both heat sources.
4. Large RHP dead center, UTH makes hot spot somewhere. This is basically a lot like case number 1. Keeping the RHP centered is probably the most efficient with regard to losing as little heat as possible to the room outside the cage.

If you're only expecting the RHP to give you the ambient temperature you want, not the gradient, you can't "overwhelm" the cage with a large one, assuming it's on a thermostat. If it's bigger, that just means it will run at a lower temperature but spread out over a larger area for the same total heat output. That sounds like a win-win to me, especially if the snake has branches/perches that it uses.


I can think of several reasons not to use an RHP under the whole setup. One: it's not as flat/ thin as a UTH, so you'd have to set it up on something. Two: You'd lose more heat to the room with it on the outside of the cage than on the inside. Three: It can run safely at higher temperatures on the ceiling than on the floor because snakes can't sit on the ceiling. You couldn't run a RHP under the tank at any higher power than a UTH of the same size, for the same reason you have to limit UTH's with thermostats/rheostats: floor can get too hot otherwise and snake gets burned. So it would basically be a really big bulky expensive UTH.

For what it's worth, I built my cage so that the RHP sits under a shelf/platform inside the cage instead of on the actual ceiling. This setup loses less heat through the top than just sitting it on the ceiling, and it makes an additional hot spot/warm zone on the shelf above the RHP. BUT: there is also a fair amount of insulation between the RHP and the surface of that shelf. At the power level required to heat the cage in the winter, the surface of that shelf would get way too hot without it. With the insulation though, the shelf is generally in the mid-80's. There is a plant and a couple of hides up there, and my snake actually spends more time up there than he does on his slightly warmer floor-level hot spot.