Opinion: Do you find breeding spiders unethical?

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Originally Posted by Morjean

Reasoning such as "it's pretty", "it sells", "feeds well (provided the wobble allows them to feed at all)" etc are not valid enough to me, and the same counts not only for spiders but every morph which has health issues.

Apparently an unpopular opinion around here, but I strongly don't support it

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Its not that its an unpopular opinion but more a lack of knowledge and research.
I often find it entertaining in this hobby that much of these started as "one time" or "a friend of mine"....:rofl::rofl:

I wouldn't say unethical since other than making them a bit wobbly it doesn't affect them at all but I do find it a bit immoral to intentionally breed for something you know will have issues. That said, I don't mind other people breeding them and I wouldn't mind owning one but I would feel too guilty to ever breed them myself

I see the argument being the snake wobbles. Ok I get that. IMO they don't seem to be in any pain, eat fine, and live well in our enclosures. Now, would they survive in the wild? My answer is yes many would or the gene wouldn't even exist. All of these genes originated from wild ball pythons at some point. I would even argue they would survive better than a lot of other genes that don't have the wobble. Just my opinion. These are bred as pets, not as wild animals. If we were breeding to reintroduce into the wild I would be against it, as their survival rate might be lower, but as pets they are beautiful animals. Just my opinions.

Interesting discussion! Most of my ball pythons have the spider gene in them, and I don't really notice much of a head wobble on hardly any of them at all. It's a very popular gene, I just looked on Morphmarket and they have sold + for sale a total of 2,248 snakes with the spider gene.

I think it really enhances the genetic study of these snakes. There are other genes that make snakes wobbly like the Champagne gene, or genes that produce mainly males or females like the Banana / Coral Glow gene. There are other combos that make snakes particularly aggressive, I'm pretty sure a spider + pastel seems to enhance the aggressiveness, maybe that's why they call them 'bumble bees' LOL. And the super cinnamons are also reported to be very aggressive by some of the pro breeders. I find the whole thing very fascinating. And we are now in a time where there are so many new gene combos that almost every week I see a snake that's a 'worlds first' combo of certain genes. And some of the paint jobs really surprise me, like the Mojave + GHI, a combo that looks completely different than both of the parents. And the allelic combos from two different co-dominant genes that act as a super producing no normals, now that blows me away!

I find it a very interesting study in genetics, especially since we started talking about different color patterns of the same species and found out how it really affects the animal on so many different levels.

Now if you want to talk about unethical, how about a super wobbly aggressive snake like a super cinnamon spider champagne! LOL

I still can't believe this is a topic that needs to be discussed. I always get so much flack for defending the spider and I wish people would look at it from an objective standpoint. If the wobble was a big deal, the morph would not be as wide spread as it is today. The whole, "breeders are just greedy", or whatever against argument against breeders for breeding spiders is just dumb in my opinion as well. Sure some breeders are greedy but if you're against breeders, don't own the animal. Simple as that. Unless you want to go capture one in its natural habitat and bring it over, you can't complain about breeders. (Off-topic but I digress)

As for the wobble, it's just as OWAL said earlier. Spiders with even severe wobbles will eat. You can find videos of them on youtube. Sure they need to be checked on and sure it takes them a little longer, but the animal does fine. A point I like to make is that the wobblers were all found in the wild and the wild is the most unforgiving environment ever. If a wobbler can survive in the wild, there shouldn't even be a debate as to whether or not the wobble causes a big enough problem for the animal. A ball python does not eat when something is wrong. If the wobble was a hindrance, the snake would have just starved to death to begin with. I have wobblers with several degrees of them and they all eat fine, furiously even. Im actually antsy to feed one of them because super excited and nearly explodes the rat with his strikes.

I see it as unethical as breeding thuroughbred horses

Again :rolleyes:

Funny thing is that people finding it unethical always compare apples to oranges comparing mammals and reptiles, and they usually have little to no experience with the morph itself, whether it's owning it or even producing them.

It's amazing how people who have owned one BP for less than 6 months are quick to make judgement based on their......based on what exactly, hearsay, reading definitely not hand on experience.

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The animals life quality should be put over the want to breed a certain morph, for whatever reason that may be.

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It always is when you breed animals, do you breed snakes?

What makes you think that spider do not have the same quality of life than a butter, pinstripe or normal, what is it that those other mutations do that spider don't?

Normal eat, pee, poop, shed, move around, breed.

Spider eat, pee, poop, shed, move around, breed.

Every mutation in essence is an abnormality should we stop breeding them ll together? (Some old school people actually think so)

There is a big difference between a snake trembling a little when excited and one that has a facial deformity so severe that it will not be able to eat on it's own, or so severely kinked that will not be able to move as a snake should.

There is no one that thinks about quality of life more than a breeder and because of that breeders make the hard decision when they breed regardless of the paint job.

Should we stop breeding to prevent any type of issue, because sooner or later if you breed you will produce an animal with issues?

Here's a question for the people who are morally opposed to breeding spiders: Have you ever owned one? It seems that most people with objections have not.

I'll admit that I was a bit concerned about the infamous "wobble" before I got a spider, but the reputation makes the wobble sound a whole lot worse than it actually is. It isn't something that negatively impacts the health of the animal. When I first got Vriska (my spider) I kept an eye on her because I wasn't sure what to expect. What I found was that she eats better than all my other snakes, thrived in spite of the stress of changing location, and that she's a friendly, healthy snake that makes a great pet. She's docile enough that I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at letting my kids hold her. I can't say that about some of my other snakes.

If we're going to stop breeding spiders because of the wobble then are we going to stop breeding super cinnamons because they're likely to strike? How about we also stop breeding leucistics because they couldn't possibly survive in the wild with a coat that color? I mean, as long as we're picking out completely arbitrary reasons to stop breeding snakes...

If you're really worried about any animal being overbred for profit, then you should be worried about the entire pet trade. Surplus cats and dogs are a huge problem and many breeds come with health issues that hurt the animal. I can't think of any ball python morph that has as many issues as a pugnose dog or persian cat and I've never heard of ball pythons becoming an invasive species or a public nuisance.

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Originally Posted by the_rotten1

I'll admit that I was a bit concerned about the infamous "wobble" before I got a spider, but the reputation makes the wobble sound a whole lot worse than it actually is. It isn't something that negatively impacts the health of the animal. When I first got Vriska (my spider) I kept an eye on her because I wasn't sure what to expect. What I found was that she eats better than all my other snakes, thrived in spite of the stress of changing location, and that she's a friendly, healthy snake that makes a great pet. She's docile enough that I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at letting my kids hold her. I can't say that about some of my other snakes.

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Thanks for this input. I also wanted to comment that Vriska is a very cool and unique name!!

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Originally Posted by the_rotten1

Here's a question for the people who are morally opposed to breeding spiders: Have you ever owned one? It seems that most people with objections have not.

I'll admit that I was a bit concerned about the infamous "wobble" before I got a spider, but the reputation makes the wobble sound a whole lot worse than it actually is. It isn't something that negatively impacts the health of the animal. When I first got Vriska (my spider) I kept an eye on her because I wasn't sure what to expect. What I found was that she eats better than all my other snakes, thrived in spite of the stress of changing location, and that she's a friendly, healthy snake that makes a great pet. She's docile enough that I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at letting my kids hold her. I can't say that about some of my other snakes.

If we're going to stop breeding spiders because of the wobble then are we going to stop breeding super cinnamons because they're likely to strike? How about we also stop breeding leucistics because they couldn't possibly survive in the wild with a coat that color? I mean, as long as we're picking out completely arbitrary reasons to stop breeding snakes...

If you're really worried about any animal being overbred for profit, then you should be worried about the entire pet trade. Surplus cats and dogs are a huge problem and many breeds come with health issues that hurt the animal. I can't think of any ball python morph that has as many issues as a pugnose dog or persian cat and I've never heard of ball pythons becoming an invasive species or a public nuisance.

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wait one minute here. My wife would beg to differ, she sees all these balls my kids have as a very invasive species in our home. Actually, she also considers them a public nuisance. Lol. She hates snakes, but boy is she good to my girls and I for letting them live in our house. Just trying to get a nice display snake for the bedroom and she isn't going for that.