BP intelligence/emotion?

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Originally Posted by Yzmasmom

He sounds like a really happy, laid back dude to me. :)

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Very much so. The only time he gets any bit of antsy (as I quickly figured out...) is when he needs to poop.... :oops:

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Originally Posted by skymall

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23979455 I haven't had time to read through this but it looks very interesting. I think reptiles are underestimated.

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The brain of any/all animals are quite complex in structure. I enjoy reading about brains, especially ours. Curiously, I tried the mirror test on Wheatley to judge how intelligent he is. He did what some cats do. Look, try and get around the animal into the world beyond it, realize there is resistance, then he moved a bit and observed the "other snake." At no point did he start panicking. It may have just been because he was in my hand and felt safe, but I would like to believe that he has at least shown a level of intelligence equal of that to a cat when it comes to the awareness of self test. (Cats typically fail/ignore the test after picking up on the fact they can't get past the other cat in the mirror. Very few will actually pass it. Another good technique in this is approaching directly behind the animal. If they see you in the mirror and turn around to look at you, it could mean they are actually aware of themselves in the mirror. However trying this with Wheatley, he, of course, paid more attention to the hand in the mirror that seemingly was coming towards him and tried to climb on.)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

"my BP loves me", "My BP hates me" "my BP loves to cuddles" etc they do no possess that capability.

Emotions are located in the frontal lobe of the brain, which does not exist in snakes.

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Love is a very broad term that seems to fit many different things. In one definition, love is simply the protective instinct within us. In another, it's a connection between two parties of knowing/understanding. Personally, I feel that love is not really an emotion, but a level of bonding. Wheatley knows/remembers my scent, and is comfortable being around me. He likes my warmth, and feels safe. He's fallen asleep on me before. Though there is nothing clearly indicative of a bond, I think it's unfair to claim that they cannot bond to their handlers.

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

If handling is always a terrifying experience, the snake is going to have a hard time learning that there's nothing to be afraid of.

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Rest assuredly, my BP has definitely associated my smell with safety and comfort. It's gotten to the point that instead of picking him up from his tank, I'll lay my hand near him, and once he smells me out, he starts climbing up my arm.

I have an Australian Woma python that I handle frequently and when I got a new albino dwarf reticulated python I was almost positive he got jealous and curled up in his hide for almost a whole month before coming out to play again. Most people say that snakes are not smart enough to feel jealousy but who really knows?

I think most animals are way smarter than we give them credit for, it's just that they don't have the will to do our 'tricks' to evaluate their intelligence. Take for example cats, I think they are much more smarter than dogs, they are just not as willing to do tricks for people. Now take a snake with no arms and no legs who can't do any tricks at all really and may not even have the will to do tricks, how do you judge their intelligence?

I used to have a pet jumping spider that was one of the smartest spiders (and the coolest). I would peer down at him and he would look up at me and tilt his head sideways like he was trying to figure me out. You can't say it's the size of their brain because that spider brain was as small as a grain of sand.

They say reticulated pythons are one of the smartest snakes, my retic will look out the window of his tub and just watch me work in the rodent room. All the other snake will totally ignore me, that retic kind of freaks me out how smart she seems. Some of my rats will just sit and watch me too... Freaky smart.

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Love is a very broad term that seems to fit many different things. In one definition, love is simply the protective instinct within us. In another, it's a connection between two parties of knowing/understanding. Personally, I feel that love is not really an emotion, but a level of bonding. Wheatley knows/remembers my scent, and is comfortable being around me. He likes my warmth, and feels safe. He's fallen asleep on me before. Though there is nothing clearly indicative of a bond, I think it's unfair to claim that they cannot bond to their handlers.

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It's one sided, he does not love you, does not cuddle, he seeks heat that has nothing to do with love or bonding but has to do with basic needs.

Now you can chose other words to replace needs or instincks but it's still does not mean there is love, protection or bonding on the snake's end, only on yours.

Again you are attributing human emotions to a snake that is lacking the frontal part of his brain where emotions such as love resides.

Ball pythons are solitary creatures. They have not needed nor evolved any of the required pack animal instincts that one would compare to one of the many definitions of love. If ball pythons were capable of what you are talking about, they would do better kept in pairs or groups. Clearly this is not the case.

BPs are certainly capable of recognizing familiar environments. If you as their owner have established yourself to them as a safe place, they may seek you out. I have a BP who comes out of her hide when she smells me in the room and if I offer my hand, she will occasionally leave her hide to crawl up my arm. Her hot spot is about the same as my skin temp and by all (snake) logic my arm would offer less safety as it's out in the open. However, she still chooses to come to me, which I can only attribute to smell and curiosity. It may not be affection as is shown in pack animals, but that exists for the sake of safety and protection. A snake associating its owner with safety is pretty close to the same thing.

My snake is very capible of communicating if she doesn't want to come out. Sometimes she seeks me out. She has a hide that is warmer than I am. I don't think anyone is arguing that snakes experience the same level of emotions as people do. But love is subjective. If my snake can differentiate me from other people, prefer my handling her from other people because she has come to trust me and associates me with positive experiences and saftey then I consider that love. Obviously she would never jump in front of a car for me and I recongize she is not a domesticated animal but I have seen the same species of snakes react differently to the same stimuli which would indicate they have personalities.

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It is also important to know that it is much more difficult to prove a hypothesis than it may seem. My evolutionary biology professor said for example that our understanding of ears would indicate that bats have large ears to facilitate better hearing. While that is logical, you have to prove it. This is because what is logical is not always true. For example there is a species of ants that live in some kind of berry bush. Many of them has large butts that look identical to the berries. Logic would say this is to blend in with their enviorment but it turns out that isn't true. The ants with the "berry butts" are infected with a parasite. The parasite must go through ants and birds to complete its life cycle. Birds that eat the berries mistake the ants for food and eat them and the parasite. Then they poop on the bush, the ants eat the waste and the parasite enters the ant's system. It may be that the anatomy of a snake brain is different from ours and logically this should indicate they can't feel emotion. But they do express personality (damage to the human prefrontal cortex can change personality). I also don't know how much research has really gone into snake brains. My personal experience (though not statistically valid) indicates snakes (at least some snakes) seem content with their owners and some don't. They certainly can develop trust.

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Originally Posted by treaux

BPs are certainly capable of recognizing familiar environments. If you as their owner have established yourself to them as a safe place, they may seek you out. I have a BP who comes out of her hide when she smells me in the room and if I offer my hand, she will occasionally leave her hide to crawl up my arm. Her hot spot is about the same as my skin temp and by all (snake) logic my arm would offer less safety as it's out in the open. However, she still chooses to come to me, which I can only attribute to smell and curiosity. It may not be affection as is shown in pack animals, but that exists for the sake of safety and protection. A snake associating its owner with safety is pretty close to the same thing.

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*mic drop*

seriously, though. I honestly think that love and bonding is a lot deeper than frontal lobes. Snakes still imprint on things, much like birds and other animals do. It has nothing to do with emotion, to be honest.

and nobody can tell me that snakes don't imprint, because I know for certain they imprint on favorite prey items.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

It's one sided, he does not love you, does not cuddle, he seeks heat that has nothing to do with love or bonding but has to do with basic needs.

Now you can chose other words to replace needs or instincks but it's still does not mean there is love, protection or bonding on the snake's end, only on yours.

Again you are attributing human emotions to a snake that is lacking the frontal part of his brain where emotions such as love resides.

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You are familiar with the term "imprinting," i'd imagine? Snakes do actually have that ability as they tend to imprint upon favorite prey items.

They have a capability, as such, to associate a specific smell with safety and warmth. He feels content to be curled up around me, or chilling out on me. if it was just warmth, he'd go hide under my heat blanket when I have him out.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he loves me like I love him. Or how I love my cat (rip) and my cat loved me (maybe...). But he has definitely shown that he is quite content and prefers to be on me than any of the other less lively but equally warm things.

its not a human emotion. This is a very basic "emotion" that the majority of all creatures feel. With little exception.

Establishing prey items is a far cry from imprinting. Considering the lack of maternal instinct once hatched and the rate at which neonates disperse out into the wild coupled with the lone mentality of ball pythons. There is no reason for nor benefit to imprinting nor affection. It has no reason to exist. They do however possess a level of curiosity otherwise they never would leave the nest but even that could be attributed to instinctual drive to eat or be alone. You are attempting to place human emotional explanation to behavior that is nothing more that instinctual or learned response. Not trying to bust your bubble but what you think you are experiencing simply is not what you think it is. At least in the way I understand your description.