Spider gene

Im pro choice on this topic. If you want to breed them, do it. If you dont like the idea, then dont. All of my snakes that I have or have had with the spider gene eat, poop, grow, and shed just fine. Being against breeding them because of the wobble is trivial in my opinion, when there are far greater ethics issues that people turn a blind eye to lol. But that is your right and CHOICE to be concerned about whatever you wish. :gj:

Yikes. OP asked people to share their opinions on the ethics of the spider wobble. I realize opponents of spider breeding are in the minority here but we still get to voice our opinions.

As for the cruel breeding of dogs, horses, goldfish, cats, etc., I obviously don't speak for everyone, but I for one am absolutely opposed to those too. I think animals with issues like brachycephaly, dwarfism, tissue outgrowths that prevent of hinder normal function, blindness and deafness, etc., should be things that breeders avoid instead of actively chasing after because they get a pretty and expensive clutch/litter/what-have-you out of it. Also you'll notice that in my very first comment on this thread that I even said "spiders and other wobblers". Maybe others aren't against those morphs/morph combos but are against spiders, but I am inclined to believe that it's because they don't know. After all, these things aren't even told to the people who buy from breeders. I've heard multiple stories of people who bought spider gene animals without being told about the wobble, and champagnes et al. are probably no different. Same with snakes that are likely to be born with painful or disabling deformities. But again, I don't speak for everyone and there are certainly some anti-spider-but-pro-champ/super-cinny/super-lesser people. Or whatever.

I will admit that I have not personally seen any of the bashing going on against spider breeders so maybe there is a part of some bigger picture that I am missing here so sorry if I sound confrontational. I just love animals with all my heart and I get very defensive on their behalf when it comes to things like this. Few things in this world get me worked up like brachycephaly or skeletal deformities in dog breeds. I just think of how easy it is to NOT breed for those traits.

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Originally Posted by cristacake

I will admit that I have not personally seen any of the bashing going on against spider breeders so maybe there is a part of some bigger picture that I am missing here so sorry if I sound confrontational. I just love animals with all my heart and I get very defensive on their behalf when it comes to things like this. Few things in this world get me worked up like brachycephaly or skeletal deformities in dog breeds. I just think of how easy it is to NOT breed for those traits.

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The bashing is everywhere, even here but those people tend to just stop coming here once they realise that most people here (correct me if i'm wrong) are "pro-spider" so to speak. There's nothing wrong with caring about animals and the unethical things that go on, that's perfectly fine. The thing is that the spider has gotten such a bad rep over the past few years mainly due to the internet and people not doing their research. As for he breeders who do not disclose the information about the wobble there are some who just assume a person knows about it by now or they are just the type of breeders that happen to be "bad" (giving them the benefit of the doubt)

The main thing about the whole "ethical debate" is the idea that simply breeding spiders is inheritly bad. The snakes, as stated numerous times by various people, thrive perfectly normal. Now it would be unethical to breed spiders and cull them at the very instance of a wobble which is what people used to do way back when. As for the whole "snake is suffering" thing, I have never seen a spider that had any signs of suffering if the husbandry was correct. Snakes are not like us and people need to understand that certain animals don't have the same quote unquote intelligence as us. A snake can't love you, but they do have the ability to learn and remember.

Now of course there are the "super" wobblers which NERD made of bunch of accidently when he found out that the pearls were really really dingy. In cases like that it's best to cull but in terms of spiders, a spider never comes out like that 99% of the time.

I feel like im being stubborn as well and there are probably many holes in my post but the spider debate really gets me riled up. (I use tumblr a lot and people are so quick to bash spiders without any research into it or its history) and as far as I know, the wobble hasnt been confirmed to be a neurological disorder only speculated. (i could be wrong and if so please correct me)

please feel free to point out any inconsistencies in what I've said.

Granted some can wobble so bad they need to be culled for the most part spiders are perfectly fine. If it truly stressed the animal, it would not eat. We all know bp's can be finicky eaters and any bit of stress can start a hunger strike. This leads me to believe it does not create any problems. To me it is just a neurological change equivalent to the physical changes in other morphs.
I think people don't fully understand the wobble and they don't like it for that reason. Truth be told a spider with average wobble would have better chance of survival in the wild than most of the morphs I have seen. So how can you say one bothers or is more detrimental to the snake than the other? How do you know being albino, solid white, solid black or any of the other colors out there don't negatively affect the "feelings" of the animal? You can't, all you can do is assume.
The closest I think you can get to communication with these little guys is guessing their stress level based on appetite and behavior. Most spiders I have seen are pleasant little creatures that eat as well as any other morphs.

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Originally Posted by cristacake

I think animals with issues like ..., dwarfism, ... should be things that breeders avoid ....

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Kiss Basset Hounds, Corgis, Dachshunds and a few other dog breeds goodby. :D

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

I feel like im being stubborn as well and there are probably many holes in my post but the spider debate really gets me riled up. (I use tumblr a lot and people are so quick to bash spiders without any research into it or its history) and as far as I know, the wobble hasnt been confirmed to be a neurological disorder only speculated. (i could be wrong and if so please correct me)

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Ah, reptiblr. Yeah I get pretty frustrated with them too. I agree most of the major reptile blogs I saw (I have unfollowed the most annoying ones and stick to personal blogs just for the pictures) are very prone to just hearing about something one time from a biased post with bolded font and then broadcasting it everywhere with no research done. I definitely understand the frustration there. Most of them seem to have no idea what they're talking about, they've just been told spider=bad.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Kiss Basset Hounds, Corgis, Dachshunds and a few other dog breeds goodby. :D

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Why is everyone assuming I don't know how dog breeds are brought about? I really feel like I'm being talked down to here, is it just me?

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Originally Posted by cristacake

Why is everyone assuming I don't know how dog breeds are brought about? I really feel like I'm being talked down to here, is it just me?

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Dont know why people always want to assume they are being talked down to when others disagree or get enlightened about all the hyprocrisys in life.
You cant be aginst something but for another or in my opinion you shouldnt pick around and gather just what you like but not what you are against.

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Originally Posted by cristacake

I really feel like I'm being talked down to here, is it just me?

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yep just you :gj:

OP breed Spider if you like them, don't if you don''t, like many things spider wobbles is greatly exaggerated by people with limited experience, sure theré might be a train wreck here and there but I can tell you I never had to cull a single spider or spider combo, none were train wreck all were thriving.

And if you do not want to breed them by fear that one of your offsprings might be a train wreck than re-consider breeding all together because many things can happen when breeding, kinks, missing eye, severe under bites etc.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Dont know why people always want to assume they are being talked down to when others disagree or get enlightened about all the hyprocrisys in life.
You cant be aginst something but for another or in my opinion you shouldnt pick around and gather just what you like but not what you are against.

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I'm not sure I get it... Can you explain he second sentence? Are you meaning that one shouldn't approve of the breeding of some BP morphs, or some dog breeds or whatever, at the same time as disagreeing with the breeding of others? I want to understand. I'm starting to feel like there's something I'm missing here because almost everybody seems disagree with me on this spider thing.

You are missing it because its something you dont want to agree with. You are viewing it with a closed mind instead of open eyes and respecting others opinion.