BP Food Size and UVB Lighting

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Originally Posted by MandMac

I have to think that the vets were talking about certain species of snakes and not all snakes. Boas and pythons have a skin fold or flap on the underside of their jaw which, along with the ability to running their jaws, allows them to eat prey larger than the size of their head. (Sorry for any misuse of terms) If we were to feed our balls prey no larger than their heads, then I think we would be permanently starving them. Since I've been hearing a lot about obesity in reptiles, perhaps the vets are recommending underfeeding intentionally?

So far as uvb lights go, I think it's obviously not a necessity. However, I have heard other people saying that they do benefit from it. I haven't seen any scientific evidence for this, but I have seen images of ball pythons hanging out under uvb lights, and I found an old book titled Snakes of Africa in which the author noted that royals could occasionally be found basking.

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I totally agree with you on the feeding. It's possible the vet has seen too many cases of obese reptiles or choking they would rather recommend underfeeding. I'm not sure though since I didn't ask.

I've been looking for papers on nocturnal reptiles and UVB and it seems like the general concensus is that it's not required but it's shown to benefit them and they have been seen to bask when there is still UVB light outside in the wild.

Anyway, I think I'm going to hang a UVB above my snake's cage now. They said a 5% UVB is enough. :)

Of course it will benefit. The only problem is if your BP is anything like mine, they wont be out during the day to use it. I did use a T8 5.0 on Rosey way back in the day and honestly it didn't seem to do anything. Also remember, any screening or plastic or glass will completely nullify the benefits as UVB cant penetrate glass or plastic. 5.0 is plenty. That is the equivalent of a jungle floor under canopy. 10.0 is like 10-12 pm in a desert scenario. Mid afternoon to late afternoon in a desert scenario, you don't find really anything basking in that time as the UVB is very strong during that time of day.

And yeah Crepuscular reptiles wont really benefit much from UVB as that is not how they evolved. Now beardies, iguana and basking lizards are a different story completely. I mostly quit using UVB tubes on Rosey because there was no way to shield her from coming into contact with the tube and more important to me, sticking her tongue into one end of the tubes sockets. I was always afraid she would get electrocuted. And I didn't want to have screw in a whole huge big mesh wire lamp screen in a 14" high PVC cage. I just take them all out for sun every few days in the summer time and they seem to enjoy it for about 15-30 mins. Then they kind of try and perch under my arms like to shield themselves from the heat and sun lol.

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

Okay I don't want this thread to just be people bashing the vets, lol. They're actually really great, caring, and knowledgeable people. I'm thinking that food size recommendation was a way to prevent owners from giving food too big. :snake: Or maybe she just didn't know as much about snakes as the other vet.

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They are very possible really great and caring people indeed. Knowledgeable, probably so... but maybe not as knowledgeable on snakes. The information they are giving sounds pretty spot on for a lot of lizards and other reptiles. Snakes, not so much. The unfortunate thing about this, is all the people that watched or listened to these vets when they speak like this. You end up with people who have pet BP's that now truly believe feeding their BP a fuzzy mouse for the first two years of it's life is perfectly acceptable and vet recommended. Not to mention buying extra lights that really aren't going to benefit the snake. They'll probably have them buying calcium powder or dusting/gut loading the prey as well.

You seem to already know better about the prey size, which is great. It's just sad that for all the people that hear vets like this talk, only about half will know better. :(

Generally, carnivores don't need UVB. Their prey has enough vitamin D for their needs. Just as a mammalian example---cats aren't even able to synthesize vitamin D from UVB exposure, because they're obligate carnivores and are supposed to live on an all-prey diet. So if rodents have enough vitamin D for cats, I'm sure they have enough for snakes :D. UVB is a much bigger deal for herbivorous reptiles.

As for the head sized prey comment. . .I think that would lead to a very underfed snake! Unless she advises feeding several smaller rodents vs one large rodent.

Snakes do not need uvb or any supplement nutrition. They get everything they need from the bones of the rat and can synthesize calcium just fine. Lizards need the uvb and vitamin suplements because of their insectivorous (sp) diet. The exoskeleton doesn't contain much, if any, calcium and lizards use uvb to synthesize calcium into D3. The exception to the uvb for lizards are leopard geckos, but I can't remeber why.

You can do whatever you please, but I see it as a waste of money and space to have to have another ballast on top of your tank.

I think calcium dusting and gut loading is only for those insect eating reptiles correct? I imagine the calcium from a whole prey with fully developed bones is enough for a snake.

Actually, some carnivores do need UVB. Monitors are a perfect example as well as alligators and crocodiles. Most crepuscular reptiles don't "need" UVB but it definitely wont hurt them and can only benefit them. Now the amount of that benefit vs cost is up to the owner. I mean a T8 light fixture is only like $12 and a Reptisun 5.0 I cant remember the price as I haven't bought T8 bulbs in forever. I only use T5 HOs for my beardie but T8s cant be that expensive. Here is a link to some reading about how UVB works with D3 and stuff http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm

As for calcium dusting and multivitamin dusting, it is mainly to offset any imbalance in an omnivores diet since in captivity, we as owners cant or wont give as much of a varied diet as said reptile would encounter in the wild. Also for snakes, wild snakes would eat a much more varied prey diet which in turn would eat a much more varied diet of insects, fruits, vegetables, meats in the form of dead animals and whatever else than we could ever offer in captivity. I mean most of use feed only mice or rats which probably eat cheap food like canned dog or cat food or a cheap "rodent" mix. I for one try and vary my snakes foods with rabbits, rats, mice, and quail if I can find them. My boas seem much more gung ho about eating when they aren't getting the same rat for 3 years in a row lol.

Anyways, that's my take on the whole issue. While I agree, UVB isn't needed crepuscular reptiles, I believe day time snakes like corns, hogs as well as all day time lizards need UVB and even boas, pythons, and anacondas can only benefit from it.